Commenter goes into moral rant over author’s adult site affiliation, why does it matter?health and lifestyle, blogs and podcasting — by TDavid @ 1:47 pm PST
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In a moment I’ll be sharing a comment which originally appeared here on a post that I’m intentionally not going to link because it’s unrelated to the subject of that post. I’m sure if/when you read through both the original comment and my reply below you can do a search and find the post where the comment was left misplaced originally.
This isn’t about censoring anybody that disagrees with something myself or others have written, however passionate, it’s about keeping the conversation on track which benefits readers wanting to stay on topic and people looking for something specific. A significant amount of readers coming to this website arrive from the search engines and I’d like them to find what they are looking for and not pollute those discussions with off-topic discussion.
EXAMPLE. If I’m interested in learning about fixing a bug with Outlook 2003 why would I want to get into a discussion about unrelated sites the author runs? That doesn’t belong in that type of page/post. This is partly how search engine results become contaminated, because people don’t manage the content on their pages. They start slapping unrelated ads all over the place and letting unmoderated comments point to stuff that have absolutely nothing to do with the content on the page.
We manage the content on the pages here and have no problem editing, removing and/or moving comments left that violate or challenge this rule by anyone — including myself, family, friends and other contributors to this site.
Sometimes it’s a gut call and sometimes we’re wrong. And just in case people wonder why I’m using “we” instead of “I’ that’s because I have help moderating the comments and even some contributions to posts here from other people. All the comment notifications get forwarded to another person to review as a second set of eyes to hopefully reduce something slipping through. Every link in every signature line is manually checked to prevent against somebody linking to a spammy or illegal website. We remove links to most adult sites being left too.
This isn’t a place to soft sell or target to market adult sites. Either ones that we own/operate ourselves or ones you want to leave in the signature line of your comment or link to in the comment body. If you conduct a search you’ll find very, very few links to adult sites on MakeYouGoHmm including our own sites. We want to keep it that way. Intentionally. I’m not going to say never because there are exceptions to every rule, but most the links here are worksafe links.
I’ve called the rating of this site by movie standards before as PG-13 to R and plan to keep it that way. It’s not X or worse. I would like it to be something you can access during work and maybe even at times be useful to your job. The minute it becomes heavy R to X or more graphic than that, every filter on the planet would be (rightfully) blocking this site.
Some filters already are blocking this site. Why, I have no idea, since there has never been any exposed sex pictures and I’ve never even used the F word in a post (I have used in the comments). I’ve quoted the F word from others in posts, but I don’t believe I’ve used the F word ever myself. A search for the F word reveals 15 results, all quotes from other people that we chose to leave unedited.
Update 11:02am PST: Oops! I have used the F word twice, at least, in the 1.3 million words to date. I stand corrected.
The comment that I’ve moved below is an excellent example of a comment that we like to have, despite being critical of me and my background. It’s fairly well written, contains links to support her argument and point of view. The only problem was it wasn’t left in a relevant place. Thus I’ve moved it here in its own post along with my response which was also moved here.
Now onto Shelly’s comment, unedited:
Just today I found this web site and have discovered several useful computer-related tips. I read the above web page and was moved by your hopes for Mr. Kim’s survival. I was about to commend you, Mr. David, on your writing. However, I thought better and felt it imperative to read further on your career. To my relief, I have not praised you. As you are being supported by the Adult Porn Industry, you should not be praised, you should criticized.
You make perfectly clear your involvement with the Porn Industry by specifically detailing the URLs mentioned on your two web page bios:
http://www.tdscripts.com/bio.html, and,
http://www.tdavids.com/.Of the 15 sites (Ezines, Radio and, of course, ADULT WEBMASTER RESOURCE SITE) you mention, ONE is not connected to the pornography.
So, you seem like a bright man, is it money? Or, are you one of those who believe freedom of speech should be fully unrestricted regardless of the fact that technology has practically so stymied one generation that they’re left stupified when they discover they’re child receives pornographic spam?
Or, better yet, you think that this industry is limited to adults and that children are never involved in the making of these films? Nah, it’s just those depraved people in Thailand.
Oh, by the way, did I see a reference in one of your posts to a child at Thanksgiving opening some kind of tech toy? Sorry, I wasn’t nosy enough to see if it was yours. I sure hope not. Who needs their picture published for all to see when you’re only about 8 or 9 years of age. Now, that’s what I call safe.
Okay, for anyone who has an open mind and disagrees with me (And, yes I hope there are those who are in agreement), but would like to see arguments to support the safety of internet, let’s just start with these URls in the following list. I HAVE included links to sites in support of pornography.
Let’s start with the best one .. as usual, PBS presents a well-thought-out case:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/
http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2005/11/the_webs_pornog.php
http://www.caru.org/program/safeHarborList.asp
http://www.motherhoodproject.org/?cat=20
http://bob.nap.edu/html/youth_internet/ch3.html
http://www.obscenitycrimes.org/espforparents/MinorsAndNetporn.cfm
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/ashcroftfreespeech.html
http://ijpor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/extract/18/4/475
http://www.hd.net/transcript.html?air_master_id=A3619
http://www.thesharpener.net/2005/06/24/protect-the-children-keep-porn-legal/My wishes for a SAFE and Happy New Year.
Now that you’ve read Shelly’s comment, here was my response which was moved here.
Shelly - thanks for sharing your views on the adult industry and as you might figure we don’t exactly agree. I’m sorry you think the adult business as a whole is worthy of criticism. I would agree that some aspects of the adult business are worthy of plenty of criticism. Most reasonable people would, but you are painting with a broad brush. That’s an all too common problem with people who go on a morality campaign against the adult business.
Some people have that point of view and there is nothing I can say to change that. This site, makeyougohmm.com, is a mainstream website though the last time I checked, and you chose an unrelated post to leave this type of comment on. What does an update on a news piece on James Kim have to do with any of this?
It’s ironic but I almost deleted your comment because it doesn’t conform to the most important tenets of our commenting policy: stay on topic. I decided to approve and respond and leave this here temporarily, however, because it deals with Freedom of Speech and seems to have been heartfelt written. I’m going to move your comment and my response here to a post of its own though because I don’t want the search engines coming here for news on James Kim and find essentially your personal message to me (why didn’t you email this to me?). This is not because I’m ashamed or embarassed by my adult affiliation, it’s because it’s not relevant in this post. Understand?
Here’s what I’m going to do: I’ll make your post even more prominent here at this site, not less, by putting in it’s own brand new post. Sadly, you have made this post which is about something unrelated to the adult business about the adult business. Yes, sometimes I do become the topic, but in this post, one of 4,000+ I’m not the primary or even secondary topic of the material.
Now for some corrections.
This site is not supported by any adult websites and there is no “porn” here. This site is supported by the advertising you see surrounding the pages and sometimes linked inside and marked as “affiliate.” We have lots of websites and this is merely one as you’ve learned.
The fact that you found MakeYouGoHmm.com “useful” is great. I hope you’ll continue to return even if you dislike the fact that I’ve had and continue to have an affiliation with the adult business. This is a fact that I don’t hide from, although that allegation most ridiculously was lodged at me a couple months back. I find this allegation silly because every Friday — nearly for 7 years now — I broadcast and host a live web radio show where the primary audience is, guess who? Adult webmasters. The show, as far as I know, is the longest running weekly live web broadcast for adult webmasters. Next week will be our 314th show.
Would you like to know what happened on the 313th show? (I’m sure you wouldn’t Shelly, but others might) A nurse contacted me who wants to become an adult webmaster. We spent over an hour talking about the adult business and the best way for somebody brand new to get into the business. We talked about doing things legally and properly and I gave her many tips for how and where to get started.
I’ve written here before about the adult industry, so there would have been other posts that might help answer some of your questions, Shelly, above in great detail. Do a search here for ‘adult industry’, ‘porn’, ‘2257′, etc and you’ll find several detailed posts written by me on the subject:
Adult websites won’t go quietly into the night
http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060217/2958/The Child Protection Act is a cover story
http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060121/2868/Freedom Under Assault: 2257, porn and politics
http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20050624/2069/The last one is probably the most profound post I’ve written on the subject and one of my personal favorites of anything I’ve written here to date. I care about the First Amendment, you bet I do, but not primarily for the adult business as many might wrongly believe, but for our freedoms in all areas, including my ability to have a site that isn’t about the adult business and rarely, if at all deals with the adult business. You are here now, thanks for stopping by.
I’ve thought about making an adult version of this website. In fact, I bought a domain for it last year and it’s called nakedyougohmm.com. I have many, many detailed thoughts and experiences I could share on the adult business but I choose not to do it here because that’s not what this site is about and for. If I ever do that, it will be on another domain. Either the nakedyougohmm one or a different one. Honestly, I haven’t decided for certain that I want to do an adult version of this site, but I can assure you of one thing, it will not be at this domain as long as I have anything to do with this site.
The First Amendment is a wonderful thing, Shelly.
We give up so much in the name of protection to government. We do not need the government to protect us in this way and sometimes — as I reflect on what’s happening in the Iraq war — I wonder if we need the government to protect us at all. Letting the government take too many of our freedoms creates a police state. 1984. That’s not what I believe in or support. I believe in people, Shelly. People like you and I even if we disagree being able to come to some common ground on subjects and discuss them reasonably and responsibly. Even if we need to agree to disagree we need to find tolerance for each other.
Whenever it is relevant for me to mention I have an affiliaton with adult websites, I try and do so and today you’ve given me another chance.
It is interesting that you bring children into a discussion with an adult. I’m 38 years old, Shelly, not 8, so why are you talking to me about children? People who oppose the adult industry almost always bring up the children and act like the government should police what adults do because of threats to the children. My wife and I are good parents, thank you very much, and in one part of your post you talk about not being nosey and then mention our children in another? Leave my children out of these discussions. You are trying to tie my children into a discusson of the adult business and I find that not only wrong but offensive. You are putting children in a place that you are condemning myself and others as doing. Why are you doing that?
I didn’t bring up children, you did. And this is an age old tactic for those who dislike the adult business. They point to the children as if every adult webmaster must be a terrible parent or be subjecting their children to inappropriate material simply because they have something to do with the adult business. That’s a sick and twisted leap of faith. I know full and part time adult webmasters who regularly report the true bottom feeders of society — the people who do get involved with sick stuff like that — to sites like ASACP.org. I’ve donated to ASACP.org, BTW, including blogging and raising money here back in 2003 for the ASACP cause.
Bottom line: I’m not ashamed of my affiliation with the adult business and do not seek to hide any of these facts, which is why you see my bio prominently linked on the homepage here and I disclose these affiliations when relevant. I won’t and don’t do it in every comment or every post, but I do when it’s part of the discussion. Same as I do when I am praising a company I own stock in.
Naturally, when you look at my personal site (tdavids.com) you’re going to find links to adult sites, most of which are webmaster resources that I have worked with in the past. Those pages haven’t been updated in years so I probably need to get in and check that those links are still valid. You also didn’t mention Script School which is a site where I’ve spent huge amount of time working with adult webmasters instead of shunning them, teaching them when others with attitudes toward the business similar and worse than yours turn the other way or even go out of their way to fight against.
We don’t link to, support or are supported by any illegal activity, everything we do in our adult ventures is above board, legal and intended for consenting adults. I don’t even have a permanent link on this site to these ventures. If I want to promote porn here, why am I not linking out to it here? The answer is simple: this is not an adult site. Also, it would be a violation of advertising agreements we have in place. We try our best to respect and follow advertising agreements and terms of service.
So, in order to find those type sites people will need to visit my bio, as you and some others have, and proceed from there. That’s fine, it’s information there for people who are interested and that I am disclosing all my business affiliations: both mainstream and adult. The adult business is part of my history and not something I’m ashamed or embarassed by but I do respect that others reading here might not want to have me beating this drum all the time (and I don’t want to anyway), so I don’t. I’m capable of writing about subjects and interests well beyond and aside from the adult business as I think this site and others demonstrate well.
You wish me a safe and happy new year and at the same time tell me I should be criticized? Make up your mind. Should I be safe and happy or criticized? That’s fine with me if you don’t like the adult business, but please do not use posts here where it’s not relevant telling me how much you personally disapprove of the adult business.
You tried to make a terrible situation about a man who froze to death — James Kim’s loss to his family — about you, I and the adult business. That’s worthy of more criticism than anything you wrote above. Shame on you, Shelly. I’m moving this comment to its own post where others can weigh in and respond.
Do not expect it to last at its original location and do not leave any more comments on that post like this, as they will be removed. You are welcome to respond as much as you like on the subject in the new post.
This is the new post I spoke about in my comment both for Shelly and for you. Feel free to leave your comments below on the subject. Does it bother you as a reader that I have an affiliation with adult webmasters and adult sites? That some of our online business income — a pretty small portion these days, frankly — is derived from these sites?
Personally, I don’t care what business(es) readers or writers I enjoy are involved with as long as it’s legal. I enjoy the freedom to run any type of legal site on the web that I choose and will continue to do so if/when I want to regardless of what others think. If that is a huge problem for any reader, the fact that I’m here admitting all of this, then you have the freedom to leave. I’m not going to let anybody mess with my freedom, including morality freaks who probably screw like bunnies behind closed doors. Some of the most morality-focused people turn out to be the kinkiest out there.
The links that Shelly provided offer a good counter argument to the pitfalls of adult sites on the web, but it’s disappointing to see most of them not identifying the self-policing that goes on within the adult community. I don’t want to see the government involved in regulating the internet based on what they define as obscene. Look at what happened with Janet Jackson’s boob slip at the Superbowl. The government is incompetent when it comes to dealing with determining obscenity.
I think most reasonable people will agree that people producing illegal content should be arrested, myself included, but people who are producing legal adult content have just as much right to do so as those who cash your paycheck at the bank or check out your groceries at the store.
None of the anti adult sites comments and articles I’ve read have changed the way I do things, but some like Shelly’s make me go hmm. It seems like there are some people in this world who want to regulate everything so that we have little to no personal choices and responsibilities.
Your thoughts? Do you choose your reads based on all websites a person runs or primarily/only on the one you’re reading? Or does it not matter at all?
Related Posts- Adult industry says yes to HD-DVD after Sony says no on Blu-Ray
- Privacy fears over surfing justified or not?
- The Child Protection Act is a cover story
- Adult websites won’t go quietly into the night
- Adult material on cell phones a growing market
- Promiscuous ad for Microsoft Office Student Teacher Edition resurfaces
Personally, I choose most sites because of the content that appears solely there. The exception to that is usually if I know the person/people from some other context - in fleshy terms or from another site, usually - in which case it tends to be their writing style I appreciate. There are bloggers out there who I know I don’t agree with on certain levels (often religious) but I still enjoy their output and still link to their content.
Does the fact that you have connections in the adult industry bother me? No; in fact I’d be interested in reading more about it, because as many have observed it’s an area that intrigues many but few experience it beyond the occasional triple-X rated site or unwanted pop-ups and clouded Google searches.
I think it’s all about context; when I’m writing tech news then sex - unless there’s an obvious connection - doesn’t really come into it. When I’m writing an opinion piece on my personal blog then I mention, and link to, whatever I please - it’s valid because it’s my own opinion. Obviously I’m careful in labelling NSFW links, but other than that it’s pretty clear where my head is.
There are always going to be people who disagree with your own position on something; what’s important is how you let it influence you and the work you do in future. I’m relieved to hear that it’ll be business as usual here.
Comment by Chris Davies — January 7, 2007 @ 2:59 pm PST
Here Here TD! I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately it’s a sad fact that there will always be religious zealots, prudes, and idiots so afraid and embarrassed of their own sexuality, bodies and own “inner voice” that they will do anything to stifle the freedom of others so they don’t have to “deal with it”.
Pardon my language but most of these “fuck wits” (I guess thats one more use of the f* word for yeah!) badly need to enjoy life, get laid, visit a nudist beach, get drunk and have 3’some. They don’t need to do it all the time, but every once in a while to blow off some steam and they’ll have a much more relaxed attitude towards things and might just stop making children the focus of discussion where they don’t belong.
I’m sorry if my comments are a bit crude, but people like this Shelly, who are so concerned about morality and “what’s right” should have the respect not to start this kind of conversation in a post, such as the one about James Kim.
Comment by Paul OFlaherty — January 7, 2007 @ 3:16 pm PST
Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts, Chris and Paul.
We don’t mind people swearing in the comments or using crude language from time to time
If it seems like overkill we can always edit it out with asterisks or something so that others read the !%#% effect 
But this hasn’t ever been a problem and I don’t remember a single instance here of editing out profanity (although I’m sure that’s happened in some case(s) over the last 3 1/2 years or so).
(Note to others about to leave a comment: please do not intentionally test this threshold)
I think most readers tend to follow the lead of the subject matter and if the post content and author constantly use profanity or if it was on a site with more intended adult subject matter like the possibly-launched-someday-in-the-future nakedyougohmm, that would invite a lot more of that type language from myself and others.
Comment by TDavid — January 7, 2007 @ 4:37 pm PST
It’s amusing, but locally, we have one of these types of “trolls” where they continue to comment and trash our local paper’s editor’s blog disregarding the topic. It’s like… “here’s what I think about the topic, and by the way… this is why I hate you.” Uhh okay.
What’s even more amusing is the whole “Thailand” rant. Yes there is child pornography here in the US. It’s disgusting, and terrible, and what’s even more interesting is that those of the legitimate adult business despise it. I’ve read time and again about you talking about COPA/CIPA.
One thing I’ve learned over the many years administrating chatrooms and other forums on the Internet. 1) Most of the ones that talk about “X” subject, especially out of the blue, seem to have a hidden fascination with the subject. 2) Those that think they’re out for a “cause” don’t help the “cause” usually because they strain the medium by beating the horse to death.
Don’t ask me why it’s like that. But from observation, you can get plenty of evidence of this.
Child pornography is bad. Evil. Period. Pornography in general? Been around for ages, and personally I find that from a technical perspective, they actually are on the frontlines of looking at new and fun tech things for distribution and what not (look at DVDs, and downloadable content).
Pornography for the money? Huh? People fail to realize that porn isn’t a huge return business. It’s like any other business as shown in the article by BoingBoing on media overblowing the porn industry. Just look at the raw numbers.
Crazy. Simply crazy.
Comment by darkmoon — January 7, 2007 @ 9:58 pm PST
Unfortunately for you, I view the “adult” stuff you are associated with as something that is totally disrespectful towards humans. I don’t think it is a legal issue. With regards to this topic, I think it is an issue where if I’m asked how close to the the edge I can be, I will respond “as far from the edge as possible.”
In that regard, I’m going to chose to unsubscribe from any feeds that you are associated with, and I’m going to withhold any further association with you. It’s just something that is a major problem in our society, and rather than helping and making others better, I think you are contributing to something that is very, very negative and very home wrecking and very, very bad. I will not support that.
Comment by Toby Getsch — January 8, 2007 @ 1:29 am PST
I think what it comes down to, as you said TDavid, is that anyone who’s unhappy with the content (or the author) of a site are free to leave. If you don’t like thinking about or seeing or reading about X topic, then hey, avoid that topic wherever possible!
Shelly acts as though she’s trying to make your site visitors aware of something horrible - the shock, the horror, TDavid is admittedly linked to adult topics! Now everyone who was blissfully ignorant can run away in shame of ever having read the words of such a person. Hilarious. I had no clue until this post, and it didn’t change my opinion of you in the slightest. Although I did enjoy your writing throughout the post, so maybe in fact my opinion of you has climbed. Poor Shelly, her plan has backfired.
And if Shelly thinks that innocent pictures of kids online is a bad thing… well, no one can help her there. I bet Shelly believes ALL police officers are corrupt and wife-beaters simply because a small percentage have been found throughout time. Geez, I wonder what she thinks about politicians. How does Shelly make it through life day-to-day, surrounded by the perceived decadence of our society?
PS Shelly: It is not nosy to read (or view pictures on) a publicly posted blog entry. I think there are more important things to be concerned about than legal adult content, in whatever format. How about you go decry websites authored by bigots… oh wait, you might run one yourself.
Comment by Candice — January 8, 2007 @ 3:06 am PST
Thank you for reading, Toby. Strangely, you left a link to your website, so I decided to follow …
From Toby’s public About me page: “I am a Christian who believes that Jesus Christ is my savior. I believe in a relationship with Him, and not in a religion of rules with shoulds and should nots. Ask me about this if you want more intimate information. I am willing to talk about this.”
It’s good to know that you do, in fact, have a list of “should nots” Toby. So much for disassociation, want us to remove that link?
Comment by TDavid — January 8, 2007 @ 8:51 am PST
I left a link to my site because, like you, I stand by what I stand by. Also, I think it’s good blogging etiquette to not be anonymous.
I knew that visits may come in to that About me page. I purposefully made sure it was updated. Actually, I moved that bullet to the top, just last night, and thought there might be some shots that would come in because of that. That bullet was previously second, and that’s the only thing I changed last night. I don’t have to have everyone agreeing with me. I’m OK with that, much like you have stated you are OK with people not agreeing with you.
I’m not trying to insight anyone. Obviously, that happens on it’s own.
I have a personal disgust for “adult” content and I don’t agree with it. I don’t agree with the affects of it on relationships, families, or on our society. For that matter, what I meant by my disassociation from you is that I don’t want to read your content on a regular basis, and thus subject myself to other things that I really don’t want to have as an influence in my life. I don’t want to have an “acceptance” for porn to creep into my life. Honestly, this post is pretty impacting towards perception of you and perceptions of others that comment (me included). I’m aware of that, and I will take whatever consequences that happen, because I have stated some things that I believe here.
I think by saying that I don’t want to be associated, I meant that I don’t want to promote by links in my own blog posts, to other content (like your Outlook or other examples). I have commented on your site before. I have been featured or talked about in your weekly hmmmcast, regarding some RSS stuff with Outlook 2007. That has been helpful, I thought. But, much like a gas station that sells porn, I am going to avoid that if there are other options, and if I had a family, I would probably hope that they avoid that as well. That’s what I mean by association.
I could just quietly go away. But, I chose to state what I think and what I feel. I hope I have been respectful. If I go to a restaurant and the service is bad, or I don’t want to come back, I let the manager know, and try to be helpful. That’s what I am attempting here. Maybe it would have been better in a private email. However, this is a blog format, and transparency really breads trust. So, I thought I’d have integrity to stand by my beliefs on that, and not shy away from it.
Maybe “endorsement” would be a better word. It gets to be nit-picky pretty quickly. I’m not interested in an argument. But, if anyone does want to know further about what I think or why I think it. I am happy to discuss. Maybe an offline discussion is better. On my site there is also a Contact link. And, now because I have commented further, I decided to subscribe to the comments here via email.
TDavid, I hope that you see this as respectful. You don’t need to remove any links you’ve made. What I have put in public is my responsibility. I’m not perfect, and I have plenty of opinions. There is a difference between shoulds and should nots and admitting that I’m human and that I make mistakes and can also be wrong. In this case, I’m trying to say, “Hey, you can do whatever you want. There are consequences. And, that’s your responsibility to deal with those consequences.” I chose not to associate with porn.
Comment by Toby Getsch — January 8, 2007 @ 1:34 pm PST
Hi Toby - yes, I see this as respectful. Again, I’m a bit puzzled by subscribing to the comments here and at the same time unsubscribing from the site? It’s contradictory. If you are leaving then leave, if you are willing to stay, then stay. By subscribing you’ll get email updates whenever anybody adds to this conversation and be dragged back into the conversation.
I didn’t post this expecting to have everybody agree with me and expected to lose a few and gain a few readers, as is the case with any controversy. Some get upset over it and leave, others appreciate a stand being taken and decide to subscribe. The numbers tend to balance themselves. Sometimes net loss of subscribers, sometimes net gain.
I guess the part where we seem to disagree here is that you are “associating with porn” by subscribing to this mainstream site. Just in case it’s not perfectly clear, I’m not trying to beg you or any other reader to stay, nor am I trying to recruit you or any other Hmm readers into the adult business. If/when I want to do something adult-oriented in any tangential way to this site, I already stated I’d do it at another domain and there I will be even more open about adult related topics, reviews, etc. I already bought one for that possible purpose and mentioned it in the post and comments above. Haven’t made up my mind completely if I want to do that or not, but am leaning that direction. I could understand you not wanting to subscribe to that blog, Toby, but I’m puzzled where you see me trying to influence you with this blog into the adult business.
Is that what you are seriously suggesting?
I also disagree that an offline discussion on any of this would be better. Put your bullets on the table along with me. Be upfront about lifestyle choices who you do business with and choose to assoicate with and why/why not. Stand by your convictions. I respect that. I don’t respect people who say one thing to your face and do another behind your back.
You wrote:
Do you visit the inside store section of every gas station, grocery store, video rental store, etc first to make sure they don’t sell adult content before doing business with them? I mean if you are looking all over to rent a movie and oh no, they have an adult section, do you walk out?
And then you mention the impact on families and relationships. These are other common criticism.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’ve been reading my content on a regular basis, yes/no? Has it had a negative impact on your relationships and family?
According to your public blog you’ve been married and divorced. For the record I’ve been happily married, never divorced, for 17 going on 18 years and have three teenage children. Lots of people have been divorced and I’m sorry to hear that your first (?) relationship didn’t work out, but is there something more than you are willing to say on your about page dealing with adult content that you chose not to share? Was porn the reason for the breakup? None of my business of course but since you are condemning the business and lifestyle choices I’m making, I’d like to see if your own business and lifestyle decisions measures up to the same smell test.
And what do you think has had more negative impact on society, Toby, really? War or sex? Thousands of people have died in Iraq and the war is estimated to end up costing one to two trillion dollars (if we get out soon enough). That is going to put a major and very serous burden on this nation’s economy. Who is going to pay for this, Toby? What negative financial impact is porn going to have on the economy? Adult content tends to be a leader in adoption in most technology areas which is another reason that you see me interested in the adult business. I’m into what drives and adopts technology so long as it is legal. You said it wasn’t a matter of what is legal or not to you, but to me it really is as black and white as that.
I’ll take porn over war any day of the week. Politics are all messed up. The Republicans went nuts over Bill Clinton getting a blowjob from an intern while Bush has sent young men and women out to die … for what? We didn’t get Bin Laden and how much have we truly disrupted Al Quaida? For what? Weapons of mass confusion? Weapons that didn’t exist? There are thousands of families and relatives without loved ones who bravely gave up their right to defend what? We didn’t get the terrorists. We got Saddam hanging from the gallows.
I’m curious how far you are willing to go to support your value system? Google allows adult blogs on blogspot.com. Are you unsubscribing from every Google venture and not using Google because they allow adult content? They are hosting adult webmasters and promoting the blogger service. I’ve checked personally with Google Analytics team and they have no problem with adult websites using the Analytics service. So now does that mean you unsubscribe from every blog that uses Analytics because they do business with adult webmasters?
Microsoft allows adult Q&A in Live QnA. Do you now switch to Linux or Mac because of this? Apple sells artists in iTunes with language far worse than I’ve used at Hmm in the 3.5 years. Do you never do business with iTunes or buy an album because their language is worse than what’s here?
I could go on and on with companies which do business with adult webmasters. Most of them backdoor the relationships and don’t make it prominent or clear for fear of backlash.
This to me is where the anti-adult crowd falls apart because following the courage of their convictions is tested every day in every encounter and the consistency, or should I say hypocrisy, becomes quickly self-evident when challenged.
Comment by TDavid — January 8, 2007 @ 2:45 pm PST
TDavid, I got your reply comment. I am soaking it in. I do have a number of things that I’m thinking on this. I will elaborate and expound more, probably later this afternoon. I have a few commitments to maintain right now over the next few hours - even if I’d rather spend time on this.
During this discussion, I hope that I avoid any ad hominem attacks. I know that’s hard. It’s easy to call someone a bad name. It’s hard to not.
Yes, I do walk out of video stores that sell porn. Yes, I do walk out of gas stations that sell porn. If I were on trial, I would probably be able to bring 100 character witnesses (literally 100 or more) to the court room who would at the same time be able disagree with me on some of my viewpoints, and also be able to report that I hold true to my convictions. I still make mistakes, and I still do fall prey to the easy retaliations and ad hominem attacks. I’m human.
I will respond more later. Obviously we’ve struck a cord here. This is valuable discussion, and I want to continue… while still not “endorsing.”
Oh boy, what have I got myself into!
Comment by Toby Getsch — January 8, 2007 @ 3:13 pm PST
TD, did Shelly leave a URL with her comment? Just curious.
My personal take: I do not believe that government should regulate sexuality involving only consenting adults. Personal taste is another matter, and as you said readers are free to leave on that account. For me, precisely because you keep your adult associations separated from this site, I have no problem continuing my subscription here. Your content here speaks for itself.
Comment by Sterling Camden — January 8, 2007 @ 5:34 pm PST
Here’s the deal. I am making a character judgment. I do not agree with you. I am judging your character based on your words and your clear support of the porn industry. Therefore, I will not endorse you.
Now I know something that I didn’t know before. I didn’t know that you supported the porn industry until I read this post. And, now I am standing by my convictions. Reading your site(s) and supporting your site(s) is not something I will do. In whatever way it is done, it is clear that you are supporting the porn industry. I don’t want to lend my support to that by whatever way I am able to not lend support to that.
My personal and business and lifestyle choices do stand up to this test. But, you’re not staying on topic.
War or sex? Again, you’re not staying on topic.
You make statement that basically says that if it’s legal, it’s OK. I don’t agree with that. That’s part of why I am withdrawing my endorsement of you and why I am making a character judgment. I do not think that just because something is legal it is OK.
Politics? Again, you’re not staying on topic.
How far will I take my value system? Right now, I will die for my value system. I will die for America, so that you can have a “right” that I do not personally agree with. I believe in freedom and the rights that we do have. That does not mean that I will agree with how people use or abuse those rights. I do not think this is something that should be legislated. I don’t believe that is government’s proper role in our society. I believe it is my personal responsibility to endorse or associate or support efforts that are in line with ways that I currently think. But, I also believe that you should have the right to disagree with me and to do other business ventures that may be legal, and I do not agree with. Accordingly, I think you will deal with all of the consequences of your choices, much like I will deal with all the consequences of my choices.
Google? Microsoft? Other companies? You are taking some arguments down a slippery slope, which is a fallacy of argumentation. I will not participate.
There is no doubt that there is hypocrisy among people who stand on convictions and take stands. How can you possibly have hierocracy if a solid stance is not taken. I’ll take the heat for standing on a convictions. And, I’m OK with disagreeing with you. I do not see this as hypocrisy.
There is no doubt that supporting an organization and then finding out what other efforts they may be involved in is a hard thing to deal with. Sometimes to change a system, there is a need to operate within its parameters to try to facilitate change. For example, I cannot get the speed limit changed without participating in various legal aspects and probably doing some lobbying. To do that, I would likely have to drive on the road. While driving on the road, I still need to abide by the speed limit. I can’t disagree with you and have any sort of impact by living in a tent in the middle of nowhere, just so I never have to deal with anything I don’t like or approve of. I’m not oblivious to that. I know I will encounter resistance. That’s OK.
I chose to be above reproach, and I chose to associate and endorse products and people where I know they are in line with a similar value system. TDavid, you clearly have raised the attention and perception of your endorsement of the porn industry. I chose not to associate with porn.
Comment by Toby Getsch — January 8, 2007 @ 5:36 pm PST
Sterling -
No URL left and email didn’t point to a personal domain. I don’t think Shelly is a webmaster or blogger. I think she’s somebody who just happened upon this site via the search engines like she said. A new visitor who came, found something she liked here and then decided to do research on the author and was so offended that she felt it necessary to leave the comment above in a totally unrelated post. She could have emailed me that or put the comment on one of the posts that actually did have something more related like the posts I pointed her to in my response. This would be a good one to return to also but it doesn’t appear so far that she’s coming back.
Comment by TDavid — January 8, 2007 @ 6:46 pm PST
Candice (#6) I just realized I didn’t acknowledge your comment. I appreciate you reading and taking the time to leave a reply.
Toby - I had a detailed response typed ready to send back to you and decided upon rereading to pull it back before hitting submit. Unfortunately this is isn’t a functional discussion if you are going to claim things are off topic that clearly are related. You evaded more of my questions in #9 than you answered which leaves me mostly restating and explaining why the questions are important and relevant.
If you should ever want to answer my questions in #9 then I’ll be happy to revisit the discussion with you, otherwise I’m just giving you more chances to write that the adult business is bad and so is everybody associated with it over and over again. That advances the discussion nadda. You’ve made that point enough already and I was really hoping that we could peel back the onion and get to the real answers why you feel the way you do. Doesn’t appear you are willing to explore that at this time, at least in this forum. Maybe others will follow your about page to try and solve that riddle at a later date.
Thanks for the time you read this blog and good luck to you in love and life.
Comment by TDavid — January 8, 2007 @ 8:07 pm PST
So Toby you would have to not deal with people who watch porn as well because they are supporting the adult industry by buying the movies and magazines. But their are many people in high political offices and very smart people who do. Most people would never want anyone to know they watch adult movies because people will judge them as a bad evil people. Some of the most nicest and generous people I have met have watched an adult movie. If you’re talking about someone being addicted to porn where it can harm the family and themselves then that is another argument. An addiction is never good. I personally believe someone who abuses alcohol is more dangerous than someone who looks at or even sells a playboy. I won’t deal with that person when they are drunk but won’t judge them as a person who might be a very moral and good person when they are sober. Sexual urges won’t ever go away. Trying to stop those urges cause more problems in my opinion. I wish there was more tolerance in media towards sex rather than violence which I see so much more on TV now.
Comment by JohnnyRS — January 8, 2007 @ 11:37 pm PST
It is not amazing that a lot of things being said about me, are not based on things that I have said or done or based on views that I have. It is not amazing at all. That is what people do. We come to conclusions and make judgments and make assumptions. I said we.
Here is some fodder. I did not attack anyone. I did not try to deface anyone. I did not make any accusations about any other activities or choices that anyone else makes. I simply responded to questions and stated my opinions about porn. Several of you have not had a similar respect towards me. Doing so is a bad way to make a point and it does not help in lending validity or credibility to an argument or discussion.
There is a difference between smoking a cigarette, being a smoker, and being a manufacturer of cigarettes and doing marketing that encourages that industry. There is a difference between someone who views pornography, someone who is addicted to pornography, and facilitating and encouraging the growth of the industry of porn. TDavid, you are very clearly in the last category there. My reasoning for removing my endorsement of your site here, is very clearly with what I have already stated. You asked, “Your thoughts? Do you choose your reads based on all websites a person runs or primarily/only on the one you’re reading? Or does it not matter at all?” I shared and answered. You went further and wanted more. I shared and I answered.
However, I’m not going to get distracted by off topic questions. I’m not going to get distracted by trying to be pulled into other arguments. I’m not going to get baited into random insinuations where I respond to various things that people assume - like I also probably think like this or probably think like that. That is not respectful, in my opinion. And, I am not going to go there.
I’m not going to check back for comments any more.
Like you’ve stated, I am listed online and anyone who wants to know more is welcome to approach me about that. Thanks for taking the time to have a discussion. Ironically, I wish it had been more adult like.
Comment by Toby Getsch — January 9, 2007 @ 2:19 am PST
LOL JohnnyRS, looks like now you are getting the “off-topic” brush off response. Seems to be — or have been, past tense, if Toby’s really gone now — his favorite way of answering any serious follow-up questions, which I guess aren’t congruent with his view of an “adult-like” discussion. I guess he’d rather we had been swearing at him, sticking him with virtual pitchforks and making fun of him rather than intelligently challenging his position only so he could claim it wasn’t relevant or off-topic or some unrelated place he didn’t feel comfortable going.
Now for my Jerry Springer wrap-up …
While Toby makes the following broad sweeping statement (#8): “I have a personal disgust for “adult” content and I don’t agree with it. I don’t agree with the affects of it on relationships, families, or on our society” I guess nobody here is allowed to challenge this and ask for further explanation why he feels this way? What led him to these conclusions? What backup data can he offer or personal experiences has he faced that are relevant and would support this position?
Statements like these speak more to “someone who is (or has been) addicted to pornography” than when Toby was challenged rather conveniently switching to “facilitating and encouraging the growth of the industry of porn.” He never bothered to effectively answer or address how this website as it stands, separated and standalone from the primary author’s other websites (refer to the title of the post) and — as smart people like Sterling in #11 viewed correctly and clearly — isn’t doing anything directly or indirectly to faciliate and encourage the growth of the industry of porn. What we never really got from him was why does it matter what the author’s affiliation at other sites has to do with this one? Only Toby’s words that because he said it matters, it matters. O … k.
That’s the quality of debate to be found online all too often these days, I guess.
Comment by TDavid — January 9, 2007 @ 6:04 am PST
All of these arguments seem to stem and I’m going to make the assumption having had these types of arguments before from Christianity that drives this pov (don’t ask me why other religions don’t really have an issue with it.
After making that assumption, I’ll point out that within this religion, a viewer of pornography and one that manufactures it is the same. Same as smoking a cigarette and the manufacturer. A sin is a sin. There is no level of sin. It’s not for you to judge.
Thus, if all of this stems from a religious background, then the argument doesn’t stand. If this is truly a personal thing, then I’d wonder if they aren’t from the above religion. It’s terrible of me to point fingers, but living in the Bible Belt, you meet up with some arguments that would never hold water in a debate.
Comment by darkmoon — January 9, 2007 @ 9:51 am PST
Without people viewing porn their would be no adult industry so there is no difference between the two if someone has a disgust for adult material. Also just because someone in a video store is renting out adult material doesn’t mean they like watching porn. In the 80’s my uncle and grandmother started a video store and she was very catholic. But had no problem renting the adult movies to customers. She didn’t want it in her home at all.
I was trying to point out in my last comment is that I have a disgust for people drinking alcohol to get totally drunk and change into a different person. This is a very strong passion in me. But I wouldn’t stop going to a store that sells alcohol. I wouldn’t stop being friends, supporting or caring for people who sell or drink. It’s the only thing I can relate to when someone uses the word disgust. So it puzzles me that someone would go out of their way to not support someone who advertises or sells adult material which in my opinion doesn’t hurt or kill people like driving home drunk could. It’s confusing to me to say the least.
Comment by JohnnyRS — January 9, 2007 @ 6:06 pm PST
[…] In short, I think Sony is conceding HD-DVD a major victory in the format wars with an anti-porn stance. Aren’t they going to have — or don’t they already have — writeable Blu-Ray drives? When they do have offer those, then how is Sony going to prevent people from storing whatever they want there? Putting adult content on any format, whether it be floppy disk, CD, etc has and will always happen as long as the format is viable. Heck if you do some searching around, and I’m not going to link it up, there are people (no, not me Toby) who get their freak on checking out ASCII erotic art. […]
Pingback by Adult industry says yes to HD-DVD after Sony says no on Blu-Ray » Make You Go Hmm — January 12, 2007 @ 2:46 pm PST