Not such a G’day World at TPN? Mick and Cam now just Cam |
Mick Stanic, aka SplaTT announced on May 19 he has left the G’day World podcast building as well as The Podcast Network (TPN) that he ran along with partner Cameron Reilly (Cam):
A few days ago I officially ended my relationship with The Podcast Network and I am no longer a director, a shareholder, an employee or a show host.
Chris Pirillo was “shocked” by the announcement:
I figured they were doing pretty well down under? It makes sense that you’d want to do something different every once in a while, but I can’t help but feel that there’s something that Mick’s not telling us here.
In Pirillo’s comments area, Cam was quick to be working damage control and state that TPN is still doing just fine adding: “65+ shows in production, hundreds of thousands of listeners, and we’re very excited about the coming year.”
Pirillo’s confusion immediately reminded me of James Kendrick bailing on the TPN Tablet PC show and never really explaining why. Taking the high road in business on separations is usually a good idea, but when a co-founder leaves you really have to raise your eyebrows.
Cam commented at Hmm in March of last year that they had just got started so it wasn’t fair to mention them in a discussion on podcasting as a business. Well, ok, now more than a year has gone by so no more new paint smell excuses. With perhaps a few small exceptions, I’m having a hard time fingering someone/company running a podcast business who is doing that well. These networks like Adam Curry’s podshow might generate bucks for the folks running the network, sure, but the people doing the shows don’t appear to be ready to quit their day jobs any time soon. Charlene Li did a study recently which pegged the true podcast listener audience at somewhere around 1%. Niche, niche, niche.
Eric Rice is currently trying to fuse podcasting, Second Life, camp-style conferences, vlogging into something he’s branding as Hipcast (renaming his former audioblog service). But will his spirited, well-concerted efforts ring the cash register?
I wonder if smaller, shorter, less externally business-focused is where podcasting will continue to show the most growth in true listenership? And don’t anybody tell me that all those supposed “listener” numbers being tossed about are real people. With no concrete evidence to back up this assertion, I think most of the numbers being reported as listeners are machines. Lots of dust bunnies growing in hard drives. Podcasting needs a Google Adsense solution to explode. And I mean from somebody that can push the traffic, not from somebody that has the idea but not the traffic. Smaller places have come up with creative solutions trying to make podcasters money but haven’t taken off in large numbers because they can’t push the traffic.
The way I see things currently is iTunes is the only place in the space with the serious traffic to push to podcasters (that’s where most of our podcast traffic has come from), but I seriously doubt Apple will come up with any sort of revenue plans for podcasters. Why would they?
Todd Cochrane pointed out that Microsoft missed a huge podcasting opportunity in Windows Media Player 11, but which relationship made more business sense? Stroking MTV or podcasters?
It’s up to podcasters — and that includes me — to show these bigger companies why they should want and need to be involved. How can we do a better job at this?
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T, how do you define “someone/company running a podcast business who is doing that well”? What are your metrics? We’re consistently growing on every metric I can measure, we have an increasing number of advertisers on our shows, some of our hosts are making good money ($1000 a month for a part time job talking about things they love), and I’m having a ball. To date, TPN has resisted the temptation to take external funding - I’ve funded it from day one out of my bank account. But, as you correctly say, podcasting is still niche. Not surprising for an industry that’s 18 months old. This is a 5 - 10 year plan for anyone who is serious about building a business out of it.
Comment by Cameron Reilly — May 25, 2006 @ 5:17 pm PST
Heya, just a clarification: Hipcast.com is simply the re-branding of Audioblog.com, since we’ve been for a while now an audio and *video* podcast service. All the other mayhem I create is certainly part of a bigger media futurist type entertainment picture.
Now if I hinted at combining the podcast service, the entertainment studio, the network of shows, the audience, the sponsors, and those high falutin connections, well *then* maybe it’s duck and cover time.
But it’s not. Hipcast is just good ol’ Audioblog.com, rebranded and reaching maturity as the grown-up on the block.
Comment by Eric Rice — May 25, 2006 @ 6:23 pm PST
Hi Cam - so now you are saying check with you in 5-10 years? With all due respect I sincerely doubt TPN nor even podshow will be here in 5-10 years. This is the web, not a brick and mortar business and five years on the web is like 25 years in an offline business. I’ve seen more businesses and business owners come and go in the last 5-10 years on the web that it would make both our heads spin. Heck, your own co-founder didn’t make it 18 months.
As for metrics on what I consider ‘doing well’? Show us some podcasters doing it full time, not part time. Doesn’t have to be at TPN, but anywhere. Sorry, $1,000 a month is barely a mortgage/rent payment any more.
This is where we get with my point about an Adsense-like revenue plan. It’s reasonably achieveable to get to four and five figures per month with an Adsense-like model. Podcasting needs something like that from somebody who can also push traffic like Google.
Not trying to be defeatist here, btw, I will be the first to congratulate you, Cam, on the podcast show of your choice in 2011 if you make any of these things come true and if you’ll have me on at that time and of course if both our hearts are still beating.
Comment by TDavid — May 25, 2006 @ 10:09 pm PST
Well T, I’m going to have to challenge your thinking in a couple of areas.
1. I’ve been podcasting full time for over a year, so cross that one off. I’m pretty sure Adam has as well. And Eric. And Dawn. And I’m sure there are others.
2. And I don’t know why you think other podcasters need to be earning a mortgage payment off of podcasting for it to be doing well. Do you think the majority of the 70,000 podcasters out there are doing it to make a living off of it? The vast majority are doing it for other reasons.
3. You cant go comparing podcasting, 18 months in with a couple of million of listeners, to Adsense which is building on top of 12 years of education around banner advertising with hundreds of millions of people surfing the web. Give it time dude.
4. Which beings me to your point of 5 years on the web being like 25 years in offline. I thought we got rid of that kind of absurd thinking in about 2001. Starting a business is starting a business. Starting a new industry in starting a new industry. Change takes time. Education takes time. Awareness takes time. Yeah things move fast online. But even the best online businesses like Amazon and Google took years to become seriously profitable. Sure, businesses come and go, but podcasting as an industry is here to stay. Is anyone seriously still questioning that?
I’m going to keep you to that bet in 2011 dude. But make it more interesting. Offer to eat your ipod on air or something.
Comment by Cameron Reilly — May 25, 2006 @ 11:28 pm PST
Cam - I’m not comparing podcasting to Adsense, I’m saying podcasting needs something like Adsense for podcasters for revenue generation to help propel it to the next level. There are too many podcasters saying they do it for love which is bullshit and we both know it. Doing it for love only lasts so long. Eventually there is roof over head, food on the table and hole in the ground to contend with and doing it for the love is not any kind of serious business.
And Adsense hasn’t been around 12 years so not sure at all where you are pulling those numbers from??? Google was fairly unknown in 1999, today they are on the
FortuneS&P 500 list in 2006, a mere 7 years later. Contextual advertising hasn’t been around nearly that long, really only being popularized int he last five years. Heck the porn biz revolutionalized the affiliate biz and that was in 95/96. A lot of this so-called web 2.0 crap was done in the late 90s and is being regurgitated now and people that haven’t been around think it’s new or something.With #2 there seems to be confusion as to what I’m trying to say and what you are interpreting. I’ll try again. It doesn’t matter if the majority do podcasting for non-business reasons, there still has to be some segment which are making it a viable business for it to survive with other than a cult-like following long term.
This is the fragility that I see in podcasting and that I’ve written about here several times. I’m not trying to bash the concept or idea behind podcasting — heck, I’m out here doing it too — I’m trying to find some success stories that will get it to the next level and all we’ve seen so far are mostly people running off the mouth with listener numbers they can’t even validate are real people and second rate Satellite radio deals (XM is still #1). Yeah, there are exceptions to what I’m talking about and I’m generalizing here, but keep it real, mon. Let’s look at the forest, not the stump we’re sitting on.
As for #1 — Eric doesn’t only do podcasting (see both my original post and his comment about audioblog.com) and Adam Curry had a million bucks before he ever podcasted from other business ventures. Dawn? You mean of Dawn and Drew? Last time I checked those two were begging listeners for donations. If yourself is the only real example you can give, thanks for reinforcing my point. I’m sure out of those 70,000 there are a few better examples out there, I don’t believe I’ve ever said there was nobody making any real money podcasting, I said there weren’t many. Not enough.
I hope you are taking this discussion here constructively as I’m not trying to be combative. I am quite serious about all this. I’m concerned about the future of the business because … well, I can’t seem to find the business. And it seems very few others out there — perhaps yourself excluded, I don’t know — can’t either.
Comment by TDavid — May 26, 2006 @ 12:09 am PST
There are very few podcasters that are making enough money to quit there day job, Having done a significant number of advertising deals and writing checks each month to over 300 podcasters. I can say that some podcasters that we represent are making significant dollars each month, but the high majority are are in the $300 to $500 per month category which is good for those doing this as a hobby.
From a business standpoint I have stayed with the model Podcasters do the Work Podcasters get paid, and by living that every day and not having to answer to an investor has allowed my team to give a lot more back to the podcasters insuring that they are bringing in enough income to stay motivated in doing there shows over the long haul.
At this point though we are profitable and the model my company has stuck to insures podcasters are taken care of while at the same time being able to put captiol investments back into the company and our product line.
With several new sites coming online shortly and nearly 500 podcasters signed up for the launch we are confident that in the long run the business model and business plan we have laid down and are marching to will reap terrific rewards for all that work with us.
Todd Cochrane
CEO RawVoice
Founder Podcast Connect
Comment by Todd Cochrane — May 26, 2006 @ 1:38 am PST
yeah I’m taking it seriously - if I wasn’t I wouldn’t take the time to write on your blog mate, I’ve got a company to run anc if I want to be “combative” I can do it on my own blog with more effect - but I still think you are missing the mark by a long shot mate.
I don’t believe “podcasters saying they do it for love” is “bullshit”. I primarily podcast for the same reason I’ve been blogging for the last 4 years - to get stuff outta my head and into the world, to build my profile, and to connect with people I can have an intelligent conversation with. Making money out of it was something I hadn’t even considered until we stumbled into setting up TPN. And when people apply to host podcasts for TPN, if they tell me their primary reason is to make money out of it, I tell them I’m not interested in working with them. I consider writing my blog and recording my podcast a responsibility. I’ve written about that a lot on my blog and mentioned it a lot on g’day world and I’m totally serious about it. My goal with TPN is to change the way people think about media, not to make money. But one requires the other.
My point about Adsense was that ADSENSE had been around 12 years. I said Adsense “is building on top of 12 years of education around banner advertising with hundreds of millions of people surfing the web.” The point being that banner ads started in 94. How much money was going into online advertising 18 months later? Not much. Today? It’s bigger in many geographies than radio advertising. Now I don’t expect podcasting advertising revenues to take that long (because the curve gets compressed with each generation of education) but it’s still going to take a few years (2 - 5) to get its sea legs.
Comment by Cameron Reilly — May 26, 2006 @ 4:19 am PST
You wrote: “I don’t believe “podcasters saying they do it for love” is “bullshit”. I primarily podcast for the same reason.”
Keyword: primarily. You didn’t say you did it only for the love, which is the group I’m calling BS on. False bravado. You won’t even go that far in your rebuttal. There are some out there saying they don’t care about the money. Bullshit.
The difference between our perspectives isn’t as far apart as it might appear.
You wrote: “Making money out of it was something I hadn’t even considered until we stumbled into setting up TPN.”
You stumbled into setting up TPN? Come on. You don’t expect anybody reading this to actually believe you had no intention of making money podcasting when you “stumbled into” creating TPN? That’s like saying, well, we stumbled into buying this business, but we are doing it for the love primarily
Cam - I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with hobbyist podcasting here. If you say you run TPN like a hobbyist operation, only hiring those who do it for the love, then more power to ya. Just don’t be offended when realists like myself point out that “businesses” like this won’t likely be around in five years.
Of course you didn’t actually say that, so I’m not going to put words in your mouth (as you seem to be trying to do with me) you said those who cared primarily about making money. What I’m saying, and it doesn’t seem to be translating well, is that eventually it becomes about the money unless you make enough money doing something else to be able to podcast for the love only. I suspect that’s the underlying reason Mick left because he had to do some real world things that make real world money. What he was making at TPN is the “not significant” part of what I’ve been talking about in this post and in the comments. Perhaps James Kendrick also left because he realized he could make more money doing the Tablet PC podcast on his own site then by splitting it with TPN. Makes sense to me. This has been why I’ve never been a big fan of networks anyway unless you are the network owner. You have the best job at TPN, Cam, not all those podcasters who “apply to host” from you.
Sure, I primarily get up and come into the office because I like my job, but we are a family of five, Cam, meaning we have five mouths to feed. I enjoy writing and have done it without being paid before, sure, although I would do much less of it if I wasn’t getting paid. I don’t try to blow smoke up readers asses that I’m here blogging just to get ideas out of my head. I’m here to make money and get ideas out of my head, learn about the web as a business, share my findings and to help educate (and learn myself too, I learn something new every day) those who want to make money on the web about the pitfalls and precipices before them. This is not a hobbyist venture of which I’ve been very upfront about and continue to remind readers whenever it’s relevant.
There is a huge difference in having passion in a project and being realistic about return on time being expended. We all only have so much time in the hour glass, mon. I suspect we’ll see many more podcasters realize this if there isn’t some Adsense-like model to help them out, which brings us full circle.
How do we find or create some Adsense-like option for podcasters? Or are you suggesting that there is no need for any sort of similar type of advertising vehicle to bring in additional revenue? Services like Fruitcast are putting a step in the right direction, but they are missing the traffic component to drive back to podcasters. Microsoft didn’t see podcasting as important enought to put into WMP 11 and I wonder if when they release their ad program if podcasters will be worked in somewhow (extremely doubtful).
Comment by TDavid — May 26, 2006 @ 9:47 am PST
[…] I hope Scoble received a lot more money. Microsoft, despite its many shortcomings, was a relatively secure gig; you know those checks will cash. The vast majority of startups fail and VC money can dry up in a hurry. Podcasting, despite it’s popularity, continues to remain a big question mark as far as financial viability. […]
Pingback by Make You Go Hmm: » Money changes everything: Scoble leaving Microsoft — June 11, 2006 @ 1:30 pm PST