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	<title>Comments on: MSN Search and Win incentives already gamed</title>
	<link>http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060215/2951/</link>
	<description>Technology, music, video, art, news, reviews and muse on the web</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Zawodny</title>
		<link>http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060215/2951/#comment-53899</link>
		<author>Jeremy Zawodny</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060215/2951/#comment-53899</guid>
		<description>Yeah, the timing wasn't great.  But do you expect someone to lanch a loytay program when they're on top of the world?

As for search relevance, I don't buy it.  Sure, any competitor can hand pick a few queries where they're clearly better than anyone else.  And I can make note of the few queries where Yahoo completely falls down.  But when you step back and look at the larger set of data, we're on par with anyone else.

That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement (there always is) and it doesn't mean that the UI has no effect on perception of relevance (it does).  But the raw technology is better than most people give it credit for.  But that seems to come out pretty well in the blind tests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, the timing wasn&#8217;t great.  But do you expect someone to lanch a loytay program when they&#8217;re on top of the world?</p>
<p>As for search relevance, I don&#8217;t buy it.  Sure, any competitor can hand pick a few queries where they&#8217;re clearly better than anyone else.  And I can make note of the few queries where Yahoo completely falls down.  But when you step back and look at the larger set of data, we&#8217;re on par with anyone else.</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t mean there isn&#8217;t room for improvement (there always is) and it doesn&#8217;t mean that the UI has no effect on perception of relevance (it does).  But the raw technology is better than most people give it credit for.  But that seems to come out pretty well in the blind tests.</p>
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		<title>By: TDavid</title>
		<link>http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060215/2951/#comment-53896</link>
		<author>TDavid</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060215/2951/#comment-53896</guid>
		<description>Come on, Pete, tomato, tomotto, it is the same thing. You bet MSN wants people to switch if they are using one of their competitors. They don't have to come out and make that clear, it is obvious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Come on, Pete, tomato, tomotto, it is the same thing. You bet MSN wants people to switch if they are using one of their competitors. They don&#8217;t have to come out and make that clear, it is obvious.</p>
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		<title>By: TDavid</title>
		<link>http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060215/2951/#comment-53894</link>
		<author>TDavid</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060215/2951/#comment-53894</guid>
		<description>No, I definitely believe you were working on it before those comments, but in light of the comments made by your execs it should definitely have been shelved. The timing sucked, Jeremy, you have to at least admit that.

And the timing aside, it doesn't change the fact that even if the execs had never said a word to begin with the underlying problem isn't the focus. &lt;i&gt;The search results aren't as relevant&lt;/i&gt;. I've written about this before and pointed to specific examples to someone who said they were an engineer. After I laid the case out, I never heard another word and the issues I cited still remain many, many months later. 

Don't think I'm only picking on Yahoo, MSN is in the same boat. If Yahoo or MSN really wants to compete with Google -- and I believe they do -- then improve the search to the point that the differences are significant, not trounce out incentive plans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I definitely believe you were working on it before those comments, but in light of the comments made by your execs it should definitely have been shelved. The timing sucked, Jeremy, you have to at least admit that.</p>
<p>And the timing aside, it doesn&#8217;t change the fact that even if the execs had never said a word to begin with the underlying problem isn&#8217;t the focus. <i>The search results aren&#8217;t as relevant</i>. I&#8217;ve written about this before and pointed to specific examples to someone who said they were an engineer. After I laid the case out, I never heard another word and the issues I cited still remain many, many months later. </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m only picking on Yahoo, MSN is in the same boat. If Yahoo or MSN really wants to compete with Google &#8212; and I believe they do &#8212; then improve the search to the point that the differences are significant, not trounce out incentive plans.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete Edberg</title>
		<link>http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060215/2951/#comment-53893</link>
		<author>Pete Edberg</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060215/2951/#comment-53893</guid>
		<description>You say: "but these incentive plans for users to switch search are poorly focused, susceptible to exploitation (see above) and ultimately do not solve the underlying problem: fixing the freaking search."

In MSN's case it is a wrong assumption...their goal is not necessarily to make the users switch search engines(where do they say that?), but to get more users to use theirs (see the difference?). By getting more users to use their engine they get more feedback, other data, etc. which ultimately will improve their engine. I believe they will unveil a much improved one in the Vista release time-frame or in the Windows Live launch marketing push.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You say: &#8220;but these incentive plans for users to switch search are poorly focused, susceptible to exploitation (see above) and ultimately do not solve the underlying problem: fixing the freaking search.&#8221;</p>
<p>In MSN&#8217;s case it is a wrong assumption&#8230;their goal is not necessarily to make the users switch search engines(where do they say that?), but to get more users to use theirs (see the difference?). By getting more users to use their engine they get more feedback, other data, etc. which ultimately will improve their engine. I believe they will unveil a much improved one in the Vista release time-frame or in the Windows Live launch marketing push.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Zawodny</title>
		<link>http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060215/2951/#comment-53892</link>
		<author>Jeremy Zawodny</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:24:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.makeyougohmm.com/20060215/2951/#comment-53892</guid>
		<description>There's a lot less misdirection going on than you think. :-)

Seriously, you're falling into this trap: http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/004762.html

Or at least it feels that way.  Do you really think the incentive program was thrown together in just a few weeks?

If so, you have a pretty lofy opinion of our ability to get a lot done quickly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a lot less misdirection going on than you think. <img src='http://www.makeyougohmm.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Seriously, you&#8217;re falling into this trap: <a href="http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/004762.html">http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/004762.html</a></p>
<p>Or at least it feels that way.  Do you really think the incentive program was thrown together in just a few weeks?</p>
<p>If so, you have a pretty lofy opinion of our ability to get a lot done quickly.</p>
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