Podcasting Star Wars: Winer vs. Curry |
Loading ...Once upon a time, in a podcasting galaxy not so far away, Dave Winer and Adam Curry were buddies. Curry would link to Winer, Winer would link back to Curry, the linklove was flowing. From this third party perspective, I probably wouldn’t have even remembered who Adam Curry was if Dave Winer hadn’t started talking about how much he enjoyed listening to Adam Curry’s Daily Source Code podcast. This was September 2004. My son and I started podcasting in early October and our show was one of the first 50 or so podcasts to break earth.
Along the way comes the first release of ipodder, the lemon. Curry had wanted to get the podcasts more easily into his iPod and he learned how to hack together some basic code to make that happen. To my knowledge anyway, this was the only source code he has ever talked about on the Daily Source Code with any length. Of course all podcasters know what happened next: true programmers came in and took over from Adam and begin working on many different types of podcasting programs. This made Adam ecstatic because he no longer needed to try and do the code. Adam didn’t strike me then or now as somebody who cared very much about code. This is no diss to Adam because he has said this on the air himself.
Adam Curry, IMO, cared about being a rock star; he wanted to be back on the stage, in the limelight, strutting his stuff, a personality. The former headbanger ball MTV guy, as he will probably always be referred to (The Artist Formerly Known As Prince, “every-baahhhdy”) left MTV in the early 90’s and his claim to fame then was first registering the mtv.com domain which he would later relinquish, of course. And then from 1994 - 2004, I don’t think most people even knew or remembered or followed what happened to Curry, except his most ardent fans, friends and family of course. I can see why Adam wanted to get back on the air. It wouldn’t be until the fall of 2004 that he’d get the chance, courtesy of his own code spelunking and Dave Winer.
So in the beginning these two setup the ipodder directory and worked back and forth on the various Dave technologies like OPML and of course RSS enclosures, giving each other copious credit and linklove. Adam was doing his daily source code show and Dave recording his Morning Coffee Notes. Curry would point to new podcasts — and yes, at one point he pointed to our own little podcast. My first blog entry about Curry was when I heard him play a Sniff n the Tears song: Driver’s Seat and then, to my surprise, openly admit on the air that he was pirating the song. The exact phrase: “stick it to the man” still rings. When challenged on the legality of this he would say (paraphrasing): “but since I’m not in the United States, the laws don’t apply over here.”
Of course later Adam would speak against music piracy and work towards finding and promoting what he called “podsafe” music. This would be music that was licensed so that any podcaster could play the music in their podcasts without the RIAA red tape. Of course the RIAA was too busy sueing music fans to care about the transgressions of Curry and early rebel RIAA podcasters.
Around this time a married couple by the name of Dawn and Drew from Wayne, Wisconsin started their own podcast and entered the Dave and Adam circle of promotion. The red-haired, sometimes crude wife and quiet, but geeky husband made an intriguing case study of what seemed like the man and woman on the street — the every day people — were really like and really had to say. This seemed to especially please Dave because he was into every day people being able to have a say in media. Linklove flowed greatly.
Life was good. Podcasting was good. The train was on the tracks.
Enter the at first cute, then corny, then downright annoying fake love romance between Adam and Dawn. Listeners had to wonder at one point when this constant back and forth stroking and fake flirting would actually consummate into a menage a trois. But it was all fake, of course … or was it? Whatever the case, this banter drove this writer away from being a regular listener to either Curry’s podcast or Dawn and Drew’s. As for Dave Winer? He hasn’t published his podcast on any type of dependable schedule so it was tough to become a regular fan of his podcast. IMO, that’s one of the weaknesses of some podcasts is that you don’t know when they are going to be on. At least with streaming live shows, you have a time that they will be live each week and as a listener can depend on them.
Leo Laporte of the TechTV would be one of the first pro broadcasters to enter the podcasting space; he got it right away. Rob Greenlee from Webtalk Radio who had been streaming since 1999 got involved as well. All rolled along good in the podcasting space as other amateurs and occasionally a professional type here and there would enter the space, but not many people were making money from it. Eric Rice had been making a few bucks with his business of integrating audio and blogging.
It was November 2004 when Doug Kaye from IT Conversations, which produces professional high-quality interviews, published a long wiki piece about how it was time for him to better monetize IT Conversations. Sure, IT Conversations was making some money, but it didn’t sound like a hugely profitable entity. Doug wanted some feedback for changing that and oh boy did he get it.
For Dave Winer, the commercialization of podcasting was a two-edged sword. With money involved, would podcasting turn into commercial radio? He seemed to fear that this would ruin the momentum that Adam and he had helped create together. Remember that word: together because later it would have great significance.
Podcasting had begun the path to growing up. There were some well known early critics of podcasting like Chris Pirillo who took issue with the name because it sounded too Apple-centric, but later would embrace and start his own Chris Pirillo Show; what he felt was a brief fad would balloon up in popularity as major media started taking podcasting more and more seriously.
And the poster children for podcasting: Adam Curry, Dawn and Drew, Dave Slusher from Evil Genius Chronicles (I have an in-depth interview with him that I’m horribly late in publishing, BTW), Leo Laporte and (sometimes) Dave Winer. Oh, and occasionally a few others were mentioned but those people were mentioned frequently, particularly Dawn and Drew and Curry. Even in the early days, Dave was being left out by the media. I noticed this on more than one occasion Dave wasn’t always being credited as one of the innovators and early adopters of podcasting. To me, and I’m sure others who were actually in the podcasting trenches, this just represented shoddy mainstream media reporting.
Meanwhile, a busy Yahoo group for podcasting began to flourish. On there, you’ll find most the regular podcasting players if not at least listening, then sometimes — or maybe even often — speaking.
The fallout begins. The linklove was disrupted.
The first time I heard that there was any sort of fallout between Adam and Dave was at the Northern Voice conference in Vancouver BC, Canada in February 2005. I was sitting behind Marc Canter and he made a curious statement during Robert Scoble’s presentation about asking Dave why he didn’t do the deal with Adam. I’m parapharasing as I don’t recall the exact words, because it surprised me from my blogging of Scoble’s speech. That was the first hint I had that there was something wrong.
When I got back home I started to hunt for answers in the Yahoo podcasting group, on Dave’s scripting.com blog, on Curry’s site and there was very little spoken about the situation. There was a definite cold air between the two but most people thought I’m sure that these two would patch the friendship.
As it became more clearer what Adam Curry had been working on: podshow.com, it also became less clear to this writer why Dave Winer didn’t want to be involved. I assumed it was because Dave was against turning the still pure — at least in some people’s eyes — podcasting into watered-down commercial radio. Curry was working with new partners building a commerical presence for podcasting.
Next came the Sirius deal. This was where the news media — and Adam Curry — completely left Dave Winer in the dust. Curry was going to be doing a weekday four hour podcast and featuring the best of podcasting, or what he thought was the best of, anyway. So far, not that much news has come out about Curry’s daily offerings and although he made it available to all podcasters to submit, the assumption from those who have been podcasting for quite some time now is that it will primarily feature the media favorites like Dawn and Drew.
Leo Laporte reformed the nucleus of the TechTV gang for This Week In Tech, affectionately titled: TWIT.tv.
And Dave Winer? Now he is finally starting to speak out against what happened between Adam and him:
For now, I’m not going to go deeper into the rift between myself and Adam Curry, only to acknowledge that now he’s saying more things that are untrue in press interviews, punishing me for thinking he was ever a friend. My generosity with him is, in an ironic and unfair way, a gift that keeps on giving.
Oddly enough Dave is often criticized for being loud and boisterous, but it seems to me he kept relatively quiet these past few months because he was hurt by a friend who chose fame and fortune over purity. Now that friend returns his thanks for being dragged out of relative obscurity by taking credit for creating podcasting.
The reality is that if Adam or Dave didn’t break the purity than somebody was going to monetize the platform. An entire station had already turned to podcasters for content and with this new satellite move the purity was definitely gone: podcasting has begun to break out of the hobbyist mold.
Is that bad or good?
Dave seems to remain worried about the platform but also hold some sort of mysterious hole card:
I guess Adam will keep accelerating the lies, and the pro journos will keep reporting them. At some point it will be easy for me to say what Adam is afraid I might say.
What possibly could Adam be afraid that Dave might say? I think history itself proves that Dave wasn’t out to whore out podcasting and that he truly believed in helping the (wo)man on the street have a voice in media, just as he has done time and time again with his blog. By doing so, Dave has been uninvited — or never invited to begin with — to many conferences, has been cast out in various circles. Winer is an innovator and no matter what others think of him personally, think about all the things in blogging — and podcasting — that would be very different without Dave Winer.
Where to go from here? I think it’s going to get uglier between Winer and Curry before the healing begins. If it ever begins. Will the Sirius thing be a flop? Too early to tell, but if Curry plays up too much of the same phony D&D romance schtick that he played on his podcast then no amount of major media exposure will bring him celebrity he once had at MTV. As for D&D? I’m surprised those two are still podcasting. I didn’t think they’d make it a year. Not because they are bad people or should fail, rather, if they are real people just doing podcasting and getting all this exposure and not making a business out of it, then what’s the point? I figured they’d get bored with it and move onto other things. Perhaps without all of Winer and Curry’s attention they would have gotten over with it and moved on. I still don’t think they’ll be in it for the long haul.
But that all hinges on the Sirius deal. And in 2006 when Stern comes to Sirius the rules will change. XM, who enjoys a steady lead in the Satellite Radio field is in for a real dogfight, because Stern will bring a massive audience. Will more podcast shows on Satellite turn up? I think that’s the big question because a four hour daily Best Of or Select picks by Curry won’t be enough to capture huge listenership. Now, if Sirius and XM start inviting other podcasters into their airwaves? Watch out for Clear Channel too because when will they wake up and start getting more podcasters on the payroll?
I’m going to see Star Wars III, Revenge of the Sith, later this morning, but since September 2004, I’ve been seeing star wars in the podcasting space. And though it looks like the Dark Side has the edge at the moment, never count out the rebel alliance! Is the story of Curry the story of the fall of Vader?
It’s weird the parallels in these two stories. One is fiction and the other is not. But remember, Vader does redeem himself by saving Luke in Part VI Return of the Jedi. Who is Vader and who is young Skywalker?
It’s all a matter of perspective, I guess.
What was my point in telling this long story? Just to make a historical record for myself, really, sorry to be selfish here, friendly readers. I realize I might have brought you all this way for some huge climax, but that Revenge of the Sith type story is still out there and probably won’t come from me, but from Dave or Adam or somebody else carving a financially rewarding take in the podcasting space.
And If I didn’t write this down somewhere, then I’d probably just forget the chronology. I’m not taking any sides in these podcasting star wars butI will say that I believe that podcasters need to make money to stay in it for the long haul. Almost nobody will work for free forever. I’ve been doing radio on the web as a business since May of 2000 and I wouldn’t still be on the radio if it wasn’t profitable. Does this make me a sellout? Perhaps for some it does.
Maybe Winer can stay pure, but he is the rare exception out there. I bet he’d be happy knowing that others thought of him as unique. Nothing wrong with that. Since I’m sure both are blog tech savvy about watching technorati, pubsub, etc, I’m not going to send a link to this post to Dave and Adam, but I am asking them (or anybody else in the know, of course) to please correct me where I’m wrong with the history published in this piece. If they respond here and/or on their own blogs I’ll be happy to update this entry when/if I’m notified of this first party feedback. Winer has commented here before, though I do not think Curry has left any feedback on this blog yet.
May the Force be with all podcasters!
Update 5/26/05: Dave Winer responds by creating an entire Morning Coffee Notes (17 minutes podcast, go listen to it) to explain his side of the story why the friendship and business deal (which he says was 50/50) in January 2005 between he and Adam Curry went sour. In the comments area below Dave writes:
Thanks for posting this story and trying to get the story right, even though you were missing some key bits.
Dave has also added a new blog entry at scripting.com:
I really do think the air is clear now. I want to be able to talk about podcasting business models, where it was difficult before because I had undisclosed conflicts, now they’re out in the open, so you know how to judge my opinion.
Thank you for stopping by and telling your side of the story, Dave.
Update 6/24/05: Dave and Adam are both scheduled to keynote at Gnomedex (Dave opens it up and Adam closes it down). Dave blogs at Scripting News the following:
You’ll be pleased to know that I saw Adam Curry last night, and rushed over and shook his hand and let’s not fight. He said “I’m a lover not a fighter.” Sounds good to me.
Update 12/4/05: Kevin Marks discovers that an IP address pointing to Adam Curry tried to edit the Wikipedia history, which Adam would later admit to doing himself. Dave decides to post reminding Adam that he didn’t get anything from their alleged 50/50 deal and the flames rise again:
… when it became clear that not only was Adam going to (try to) take all the credit, but he was going to take all the money too. Fact is, it’s almost a year later, and he’s never settled the account. I put a lot of creativity, time and money into building his business, and his (and Kleiner’s) position seems to be Thanks for nothing.
Adam doesn’t stay quiet to this and replies complaining that nobody wanted to work with Dave:
It was also clear that no one from the group (which included 2 investors) wanted to work with Dave but me. It was a very uncomfortable time for me, and at the end of the week I told Dave I wasn’t interested in setting up a business anymore if we couldn’t get the business people on board. He freaked out (in a restaurant) and demanded that if I got a television show out of the press at the time, that I would have to pay him his ’share’ and drove away without saying goodbye. That event made me realize I had made a wise decision. Some people you just don’t want to be in business with.Related Posts
- Curry busted, admits to Wiki podcast history editing
- The “Inside” on podcasting: show me da money!
- Blinkx thinks new podcast search is better than the big guys
- Why does Dave Winer listen to his detractors?
- Curry hooks up with Sirius for daily podcast show
- Not such a G’day World at TPN? Mick and Cam now just Cam
fantastic piece…….well said, well done….will be interesting to see what responses pop up, if any, on this one…
Comment by Matt Wardlaw — May 19, 2005 @ 11:34 am PST
[…] General
Tdavid over at the excellent Things That Make You Go Hmm website has a great post up exploring the ongoing war of words between Dave Winer and Adam Curry, the curious contin […]
Pingback by The Metal Show - with Warlock and Chris Akin - Podcast » Blog Archive » Podcasting Wars — May 19, 2005 @ 11:40 am PST
Neither person is really interesting. I find Curry nothing more than a sideshow and Winer nothing more than a pompous whiner and sideshow wannabe.
Comment by Eddy — May 19, 2005 @ 2:35 pm PST
Actually, I was planning my show long before Gnomedex 4 (when I pre-announced it, and when most of the world really started talking about podcasting).
I didn’t jump on any bandwagon.
Comment by Chris Pirillo — May 19, 2005 @ 5:38 pm PST
Hi Chris - thank you for stopping by. I definitely do remember discussion about you having a show ‘coming soon’ which predates the history discussed here, and I can see why you’d want to get back on the air after leaving TechTV and before that your earlier radio show. Makes total sense and this doesn’t single you out as a bandwagon jumper
Your early adopter legendary status has not been revoked or impuned, although it’s a fact that with podcasting you did not have a show when this all got started. A good argument could be made that you had a show before it all got started but not a ‘podcast’ which is the framework discussed herein. I’m sure lots of people had shows planned before podcasting, during the beginning of podcasting and maybe still today. Launch dates and history are what are being discussed here, though. Did you maybe participate to another early podcast that I missed? Something in September or in October 2004, maybe?
Comment by TDavid — May 19, 2005 @ 6:41 pm PST
Great article!
While I get a bit bored by Curry, I’m also tired of Winer’s nasty (and occasionally offcolor) comments - I finally unsubscribed from both. I do look forward to seeing what happens with podshow.com
Also interesting is this: Michael Geoghegan has a nice set of podcasts at: http://www.podcastsolutions.com/ where he interviews some of the early podcasters as source material for a book. While skipping over the Curry/Winer controversy it provides a context for the rapid innovation and growth of this arena in the Fall and Winter of 2004.
Comment by Will — May 20, 2005 @ 12:47 am PST
Excellent article–Maybe someone working on or around the WWE or “Celebrity Boxing” can get this thing solved…when *is* Podcasting going to enter wrestling? I give it 6 months.
Comment by Mr. X of The Podcastoutlaws Network — May 21, 2005 @ 10:17 am PST
What amazes me about this article and others is the characterization of a “war of words”. Curry has continued at every turn to credit Winer and has even quite recently linked to Winer’s weblog with nice things to say about Winer’s weblog. So the bottom line is on one side we have somebody who has remained above the fray and continued to credit Winer at every turn, beyond the point it is deserved even, and on the other an abusive lot of name-calling. It is like a bad divorce. One partner goes on and the other stays mired in the past. In every opportunity, including the Wired article where the story was edited, Curry credits Winer with the development of RSS (which he contributed to) and Enclosures. Curry, on the other hand, put together iPodder, the original AppleScript for downloading and automatically moving the enclosures to an iPod. I’ve grown tired of listening to both Podcasts. Curry’s occasionally is not bad, Winer seems to think that tricking us into listening to his belches is some how good - I guess I did too - in the third grade.
Comment by John — May 25, 2005 @ 6:44 pm PST
Curry is moving forward, promoting podcasting, signing with Sirius, etc. Winer, meanwhile, is sitting around bitching — as he always does — about his obssession that someone isn’t giving him enough respect and credit for [fill in the blank].
Comment by Brian Carnell — May 25, 2005 @ 7:34 pm PST
Good article. I’ve been a subscriber to both Dave & Adam’s blogs for years, and their podcasts. It’s a shame that the split between them has developed, especially since they were a good ‘Odd Couple’ - reference Trade Secrets. Though this is a great piece, I can’t help but feel there is more to the story that we just have not heard yet. I say this partially because what has been said by each of them just doesn’t support the nearly visceral reaction they each have had - Dave more than Adam.
On the other hand, they had been good friends from about 2000 (see for example Winer’s blog entry for 11 Jan 2001) and Adam certainly must be sensitive to one of Dave’s hot-spots: attribution. Just consider what Dave has said over the years about his role in RSS. Adam can’t be that naive. But don’t get me wrong, I haven’t taken sides either way on this.
Which leaves me wondering about ‘the rest of the story’.
Comment by Bill Riski — May 25, 2005 @ 7:45 pm PST
The whole thing is tiresome and boring and no doubt money related. Some time ago I read a piece about Curry and Winer (or Winer and Curry) written by a writer name Norman Augistinos (Spelling?). It helped me understand what was going on and how upsurd the bickering really is. Maybe you’ve read it, maybe not. Here’s the link,
www.normaugustinus.com/diary179.htm
Comment by Will Donahue — May 25, 2005 @ 7:48 pm PST
I’ve read the Norm piece (and I loved it-thanx Will) and I agree wholeheartedly with the post by Brian Carnell and Eddy
I also unsubscribed from Adam’s Podcasts. I’m just sick of hearing about all his travels and great, stupendous achivements and I’m bored silly hearing about Mr. Winer and how he ain’t getting his props.
Comment by Debbie Buyers — May 25, 2005 @ 8:30 pm PST
Personally I’m surprised by the success of Curry. I can only presume he has a great deal of personal charm. Without wishing to be mean: on his podcasts he sounds like some awful 1970s ‘yeah groovy man’ rock jock: the smugness, the drawn-out words, the belief that listeners are hanging on his every word of his rather boring life. His intellectual interests seem very limited. Oh dear: I seem to have described podcasting generally!
Comment by Jim K — May 25, 2005 @ 9:04 pm PST
I am sure there is more to it than this comment, but some of the friction must be due to the old-saw in traditional journalism: “Dog bites man” is not news whereas “Man bites dog” is. Playing up Curry as a celebrity pretty-boy who “invented podcasting” is news whereas describing lifelong-programmer Winer as “inventing podcasting” is not news. Neither story is true. Both Adam and Dave had important and interesting roles. But which way will the press play it? “Man bites dog”, a perspective insulting to the character of both parties. That stings. Then multiply that sting by all the press Curry has been getting. One thing is certain, many friendships have been ruined for less.
Comment by Tom Carrell — May 25, 2005 @ 9:50 pm PST
Look, the controversy is entirely manufactured by Dave.
As Xeni Jardin — who wrote a piece about Curry for Wired — noted on Boing! Boing!, Curry had lots of praise for Dave and gave him plenty of credit when she interviewed him. But *none* of that showed up in Xeni’s article because the article is about *Adam* and adding that stuff about *Dave* is something feature writers are going to leave out because its peripheral to the story she’s telling about *Adam*.
So Adam’s comments about Dave end up on the cutting room floor in news stories, and then Dave starts ripping on Adam. Adam, to my knowledge, doesn’t strike back although he certainly has the opportunities given all the media attention.
That says a lot about the respective characters of Adam Curry and Dave Winer.
Comment by Brian Carnell — May 25, 2005 @ 10:16 pm PST
Excellent article… I can’t help feeling that utimately all of this has much to do with the frailties of the human ego. The truth no doubt lying somewhere in between the schism that has opened up between them. Perhaps there is some sort of values conflict here (?) and possibly, we see that reflected in the differing responses that both these men have had to the growth of the baby they both feel a paternal interest in. As has been pointed out by others, DW seems to value the preservation of his independent, alternative, iconaclastic role, and AC seems to be looking for much wider mainstream recognition, alongside the commercialization of the medium as a whole.
On a personal level it may be more complicated that that, but as both men have now come to represent (to the community if not each other), opposite ends of the podcasting pole, it will be interesting (and perhaps valuable), to see how their viewpoints evolve as the podcasting community grows ever larger.
Comment by John Buckley — May 25, 2005 @ 10:27 pm PST
[…] FE. Curry v. Winer I’ve watched the Dave Winer/Adam Currey train wreck happening. The article sounds reasonably fair and balanced to me (but in a good way). Th […]
Pingback by Cloudy Thinking by Ron K. Jeffries » Blog Archive » Curry v. Winer — May 25, 2005 @ 11:30 pm PST
Some guy has published
a long piece about podcasting and the Winer vs. Curry fracas.Note that reading this is only indicated if one feels the need to self-flagellate or otherwise punish oneself. Look down to Carnell’s comment for the bottom line on the whole ridiculous thin…
Trackback by mikel.org | Michael Boyle's weblog — May 26, 2005 @ 12:01 am PST
Remember that winer once admitted that Adam paid him $10,000 to put his weblog as a default active feed in Radio Userland. That cash was rumored to be the only thing that kept Userland from closing up shop from inability to make payroll. I guess some people don’t want to admit that they owe someone a favor.
Comment by Zaphodim — May 26, 2005 @ 1:06 am PST
I’ve always considered this 2/7/2005 post, “Interesting quote from Paul McCartney on Curry’s about the Beatles and materialism. “John and I literally used to sit down and say, ‘Now, let’s write a swimming pool.’” Very cool. Note that John didn’t say “Now let’s write a song to buy me a swimming pool and you get nothing.”" from Winer’s weblog as a statement about the breakup and it supports the idea that money may have been at the root of the schism.
At once I don’t care much about this tired story, but do tend to side with Curry. Two things make this the case. First I’ve never seen any place Curry has said anything bad about Winer. There is often something to the fact that one party is taking the high road and the other is mired in the muck. The other is Winer’s ever-evolving intellectual dishonesty. I quit reading Winer’s weblog after finding out that more often than not the “other websites” Winer links to are really shill sites he’s setup. And now he wants to try to rename “iPodder” to “podcatch” in order to deprive Curry of the credit for the script Curry wrote (iPodder).
Comment by Sam — May 26, 2005 @ 1:41 am PST
You said:
Now that friend returns his thanks for being dragged out of relative obscurity by taking credit for creating podcasting.
Could you quote a reference for that please?
I’ve not heard Curry take credit away from Dave *anywhere*. Curry continually mentions Winer in his podcast, continually gives him credit, continually admits what without Winer he’d not be able to do what he’s doing.
As others have said, this so-called “war of words” is incredibly one-sided.
The different directions the two of them are taking aren’t at all suprising; each is following the same path they’ve followed the rest of their life. Curry is seeking commercial success and fame; Winer is seeking freedom from “Big Business” and, in his own way, fame.
Curry acknowledges that his path is not the only path, is not the path everyone would prefer, and is quite happy to let others go their own way. Winer heaps scorn and fury on anyone who dares think differently to him.
I’d love to bring this up on Winer’s own blog and talk to him about this - perhaps there’s back story we don’t know about that he’d be willing to reveal in private. Unlike Curry though, Winer has no way to make public comments on his site. He doesn’t even accept trackbacks, so I can’t comment elsewhere and bring it to his attention easily.
It’s good to see nominative determinism is alive and well though…
Comment by Zhasper — May 26, 2005 @ 1:58 am PST
Great article.
I only started listening to podcasts in January and started my own a few weeks later. The Daily Source Code was vital listening for me, especially early on.
I was trying to work out how Dave and Adam worked together but recently I must admit to changing my view of Adam.
His breakaway community of established podcasters for Podshow I actually find quite insulting. There had been no update in the RSS feed for two months and despite encouraging contact from people interested in finding out more, they were all established podcasters and all based in the USA or Canada. For someone who lives in the UK, Adam certainly did a great job ignoring most of the world.
So as my blog reading and podcast listening has matured, it is Dave’s feed that I click on first. I do still enjoy the Source Code but not in the same way that enjoy Seinfeld.
Adam’s take on Dave taking issue with the Wired interview was to accuse Dave of wanting to be famous. As if Adam is turning down dinner invites from Madonna.
It does seem it is very easy to piss people off but Adam’s appetite for ego feeding makes him very good at it.
Comment by Andrew — May 26, 2005 @ 4:00 am PST
First point - these two contributed a lot to RSS and Podcasting, which are changing the way we create and consume media - so fair play to them for that. and thanks to blogs and podcasts - their roles in this are pretty much documented - so regardless of what the New York Times say - credit will be there.
Second point - I think podcasting will move to its next phase of development - with money driven content - which is ok, cos people gotta make a living. I just hope it doesn’t get overun by the likes of clear channel and viacom - and we end up with a new version of crap commercial radio…
at least one thing is or sure…Curry and Winer will have a lot to say on the subject and are generally worth listening to…
I think they should get back together and do a trade-secrets podcast on the whole thing - have it all out - tell the whole story - set the record straight - no holes barred - use your invention for what it was invented for !
They used to come across as good friends - was it real or an act? do they value fame and money over friendship? Either way they should not see each other as the enemy - they should focus on the real enemy = lazy complacent main stream media. Good luck to them both.
Comment by Steve McCormack — May 26, 2005 @ 4:59 am PST
Comparing Winer-Curry conflict to Star Wars is comletely wrong. Anyway: shortly speaking Dave Winer is OK guy but Adam Curry is extreme b*stard, who is stealing music, ideas, credit, community efforts - everything.
And claiming that show on Sirius is “best of podcasting” is totally offensive because this what Adam Curry picks is “best according to him” and not “best of podcasting”. This is killing the community.
Podcasting should grow organically without such thieves as Adam Curry…
Comment by Mobile Phone Fan — May 26, 2005 @ 6:04 am PST
Thanks for posting this story and trying to get the story right, even though you were missing some key bits. Obviously this has attracted the usual flamers, I won’t be responding to them. But here is a podcast I recorded this morning that should put it together for you, it should now make sense. Let me know if you have questions via email. Here’s the MP3:
http://static2.podcatch.com/blogs/gems/snedit/cnMay26.mp3
Comment by Dave Winer — May 26, 2005 @ 6:25 am PST
[…] vs. Curry Posted on Thursday 26 May 2005 Make You Go Hmm: » Podcasting Star Wars: Winer vs. Curry Once upon a time, in a podcasting galaxy not […]
Pingback by Mediahackers » Podcasting Star Wars: Winer vs. Curry — May 26, 2005 @ 6:31 am PST
Being mostly an observer over the life of podcasting, I had seen Winer and Curry as needing each other to get podcasting launched. Curry was the inimitable PR man and Winer the technician. Without Curry, I don’t think that podcasting would have gotten near the press it has gotten. Without Winer it probably would still be trying to get going.
But that said, Curry’s future seems tied back to the very place he got his start - radio. He eschews that idea, but nonetheless, that is the model he is working under. He might be dragging a few different ideas along with him - the amateur turned pro podcasters.
Winer is still back in the western days of the beginning of podcasting. It would never have gotten very far as a promotional/commercial entity with Winer alone.
That all said, I agree with the comments here that in either case, both have gotten pretty boring and I listen to them less and less as time goes on.
The mantel has passed to others now to carry the idea beyond their initial creation. They need to realzie that and move on.
Comment by Jim — May 26, 2005 @ 8:00 am PST
Jim, you may be right about that. I see podcasting now as an adjunct to my weblog, all part of narrating my work. My blog isn’t the biggest, but it works for me. Same with my podcast. I’m still learning from both, and they still help me do other things, but neither is world dominating. That’s pretty okay with me as long as the doors stay open to me creating more new stuff, which is what I like to do.
Comment by Dave Winer — May 26, 2005 @ 9:31 am PST
Thank you for stopping by to tell your side of the story, Dave. I’m listening to your podcast.
Comment by TDavid — May 26, 2005 @ 9:45 am PST
Once upon a time, Dave was a Buzz Agent for Adam. Their relationship predates September 2004 by eons.
Comment by Michael Pate — May 26, 2005 @ 11:22 am PST
[…] 1:52 am
Getting lots of comments (and traffic, (Thanks Dave!) on the Podcasting Star Wars piece which Dave Winer linked to yesterday. I have a dozen or so similar type ar […]
Pingback by Make You Go Hmm: » Lots of comments on Star Wars Podcasting piece — May 26, 2005 @ 11:55 am PST
It’s been fun to watch this back and forth. I respect Dave Winer’s mind, but not his ego. My first run in with Dave came a long long time ago when he confronted a group of us about a deal we had just made with Apple. His anger at Apple for “screwing him” about Frontier bubbled into what we had done. And I think that’s how it is with Dave — he sees the world as screwing him over. I don’t know many people who are friends with Dave and haven’t had to watch their back for when he will eventually turn on them. Dave is all about ego, getting credit, and being the Godfather of all that’s holy on the internet.
Winer can afford to try to keep all of this stuff pure and free. He already made his coin when he sold out to Symantec. He hasn’t had to worry about money, and I think he forgets that.
And I’ll echo other people’s comments: it’s interesting to note that while Curry is giving him credit and saying nice things about him, he’s saying bad things about curry (called him a dickhead), and spewing bile. That is a very important thing to note.
Comment by gawain — May 26, 2005 @ 12:16 pm PST
Gawain, you’re spinning.
1. Whatever history you have with me is irrelevant here.
2. Who are you? If you’re willing to talk about your history with me, maybe it would help if you say who you are.
3. If you go through the archive of Scripting News you will find much praise of Adam, and credit for his accomplishments, and none of it was retracted.
4. If you bothered to listen to today’s podcast, you’ll see why the credit is important.
5. I’m sure Adam has more money than both of us. He certainly lives much richer than I do. Not like that matters in this, but since you bring up my finances, if you were being fair, why not look at his?
Anyway, you’re expanding this to be much larger than it is. Try hearing what I said, and try not to be too bitter, whoever you are.
Comment by Dave Winer — May 26, 2005 @ 1:34 pm PST
After listening to Dave’s podcast I think I understand a little better what’s going on. Curry and Winer had an understanding they were to start a business, and then Adam decided he didn’t want to do it with Dave. (And according to Dave, wasn’t very upfront about it). I’m sympathetic to both sides.
I was in a similar position about 4 years ago. Starting up a business involves a certain amount of exploration before committing to financial details and corporate structure. Three of us worked together for a month getting things going (but before incorporating). It became very clear to two that the third person was the odd man out, both in terms of personality and the value he could bring to the business. We asked him to leave. We were upfront about the reasons, and offered a salary for the month of work he’d put in. But the third person was very upset, left in a huff, and later threatened to sue for a completely unreasonable amount. Looking back, we absolutely did the right thing - the business would have sunk otherwise (and it was better to split at the start than if we’d waited). We tried to be fair about it, but our former partner’s sense of outrage and ownership was completely out of proportion to the value he contributed to our unborn business.
Not saying the Dave/Adam situation is 100% analogous. But you have to go with your gut. If Adam felt Dave was the wrong business partner, than the time to split was before the business was incorporated. Dave even says in his podcast they had different visions - sounds to me like such a company would never have worked. I’m sorry that Adam was not more savvy about compensating him for his effort and recognizing his contribution. But I think Dave’s outrage and public comments are also an inability to recognize practical business sense demands compatibility, which there clearly wasn’t.
Comment by Will — May 26, 2005 @ 2:14 pm PST
Listened to Dave’s podcast/coffee notes this morning. He sounded as if he gave Curry credit for a number of accomplishments, but was upfront about his feelings and pov about what went down. I haven’t heard Adam’s side, so can’t comment either way about who’s right or wrong. I do like to hear people like Dave talk honestly about their personal business experiences though, as so often the personal side of business is hidden and never spoken of, certainly something we can all learn from imho.
Allen
Comment by Allen Searls — May 26, 2005 @ 2:51 pm PST
Declassifying the Podcast File
The history of tech-invention is always fascinating– the history of the GUI, the mouse, DOS, the Internet, and so on. First-hand info is often a rare gem– an inventor talking opnely not just about the invention, but about the personal
Trackback by Wondiring — May 26, 2005 @ 3:07 pm PST
I must say I haven’t listened to Dave’s podcast on the matter yet but I have a few things to say about this:
1) I never really gave Dave much credit when it came to RSS/Podcasting/Blogging. I was wrong to do that and he deserves more from a community that is pretty endebted to him. He created or helped create some or all of this technology. Give him his due and get off his back.
2) He has an ego. Who doesn’t? I’m guilty and so are you.
3) Adam is trying to do something but it doesn’t go much beyond promotion. Initially, it was about Podcasting now its about podshow.com. Is anyone really surprised?
4) IMHO, Dave is more interesting than Adam. Listen to Adam’s podcast (I’ve actually stopped a few months ago), then listen to Dave. You tell me. I think if you could plot the quality of the content of these two podcasts you see Adam starting high and sloping down to the right and Dave’s starting low but going up to the right. The funny thing is the lines crossed probably about the time or soon after the ‘breakup’. The quality of Dave’s podcasts have gone way up. Or is it just that you’re hearing an authentic voice? Dunno, but there used to be a time I would listen to the Daily Source Code, now I can’t wait to hear the next Morning Coffee Notes.
5) Does this “history” matter? Sure. There’s a lesson in here for everyone. It’s life, man.
gio
Comment by gio — May 26, 2005 @ 3:30 pm PST
Dave:
“My blog isn’t the biggest, but it works for me.”
No, Dave, your blog doesn’t work even for you, which leads you to make baseless accusations which could have been resolved just by adequately checking your site. Pretty brain damaged if you ask me:
http://brian.carnell.com/archives/years/2005/01/000044.html
Comment by Brian Carnell — May 26, 2005 @ 3:30 pm PST
Brian, the page you point to says his site is brain-damaged, not that Derek is brain-dead. This is an application of the philosophy of kicking around ideas, not people. A philosophy you clearly don’t believe in yourself. ;->
Comment by Dave Winer — May 26, 2005 @ 3:47 pm PST
Reply 37 in Point 4 hits the nail on the head. In short: Dave matters. His blog is essential daily reading. Even his harshest critics know it. Curry, however nice or compromised nice he may be, is audio fluff. And that’s that. So it’s no contest. Each will continue to find their own audience…but I know who I’ll be following. (Although I hate listening to podcasts, far preferring blog reading, as others have commented elsewhere, Dave’s intimate Old Hippy podcaster voice is not only very pleasant to listen to, it’s also a gobsmacking surprise!)
Comment by Bongo — May 26, 2005 @ 6:15 pm PST
Looks like the Boston Globe is picking up on this…http://www.boston.com/business/technology/
articles/2005/05/26/bickering_among_thepod_squad/
Comment by Steve McCormack — May 26, 2005 @ 7:31 pm PST
With Dave, we get the ultimate Chaplinesqe amateur - the potentate of unreimbursed authenticity. Even with his flaws, Winer is the dishovled geek-next-door with personality. With Adam, we get the tragic glam - the moneygrabbing hype - the flamboyant touch of Hollywood we mistakenly think may rub off on us. Guess which podcast is moving up my must-hear list and which one is heading south. No matter how it turns out, right now it is the best drama in podcasting. {..}
Comment by Phil Sellers — May 26, 2005 @ 10:31 pm PST
I started listening to DSC, MCN, and Trade Secrets last fall. I went back in the archives and got all the shows. Based on that, FWIW:
1. In the beginning both Adam and Dave were open, honest and without pretense. I could relate to them and feel part of the process. By Nov. 2004, Adam started giving signs of diversion from the once coherent vision they both held. In some of the later Trade Secrets, Adam showed his true aspirations and I’m not sure Dave picked up on the clues. In the DSC, Curry was testing his personal power. Starting with the Senseo, to Biddies and in many other ways, I felt like he was becoming more artificial; I couldn’t tell when he really liked something or was just talking about it to gauge his power to market it.
2. In contrast, Dave has been consistent. Indeed he is not polished, but he is honest to us. I never felt those clues that told me he had some other agenda or was trying to market me. Unfortunately, in the Trade Secret ‘casts I don’t think Adam really *heard* Dave. At times, Adam would seem to just yes him and maybe didn’t understand the philosophy behind Winers words.
3. Having trusted friends burn me too, I carried for a long time disappointment in them and anger at myself for not knowing better. I don’t think Dave is looking for more fame, but with each inaccurate article or statement or lack of research, he is hurt again. Some people say Adam has taken the high road and Dave is just complaining. To me, Curry is molding and protecting an image and Winer is showing how human he is.
Comment by Jim Mulcahey — May 26, 2005 @ 10:34 pm PST
Best take I’ve heard to date, Mulcahey. ^5
Comment by Phil Sellers — May 26, 2005 @ 11:05 pm PST
Or maybe we can all agree that we don’t know anything — that there are only really two people that know this story, and like watching friends get a divorce, we are all stuck in the middle.
Comment by Rick Eames — May 26, 2005 @ 11:05 pm PST
There’s an historical precedent to this drama that we’re watching. The person who actually invented voice over radio (vs morse code which is what it had been up until that time) was a guy named Reginald Fessenden . A guy named Marconi (after opposing Fessenden’s ideas) became the public-figure, took most of the credit, and made lotsa money. The old-timer radio geeks in the audience will likely agree — Fessenden was the true innovator behind radio as we know it today.
Comment by Mike OConnor — May 26, 2005 @ 11:11 pm PST
TDavid,
Thank you for assembling this “living history” of podcasting (up till now). I’d submit that you’ve achieved your stated goals and, as someone who has been listening to both ‘casts since about last September, I agree wholeheartedly with your chronological journaling of events. (Although, I must admit, I’m not especially taken by the Star Wars analogy but I see your point(s).)
I like listening to and reading Dave. He brings out the slightly socially-challenged geek in us that wants to be noticed. He says things that many of us think but would never, ever utter publicly.
Equally, I enjoy listening to Adam. His unwavering, albeit forced-top-forty-sounding, enthusiasm for podcasting is inspiring in a “maybe I, too, can get my 15 minutes of fame” sort of way.
Isn’t that really what this is all about - being yourself and contributing as best you know how? And, further, inspiring others to do the same?
I can’t wait for the sequel…
Listening intently,
Danny
(A mere podcatcher, never yet a podcaster… but who knows?)
Comment by Danny — May 26, 2005 @ 11:41 pm PST
Oh, come now! Let’s get on with the business of creating technology and building great stuff. Enough with these tedious personality wars.
Comment by George Caddidy — May 26, 2005 @ 11:46 pm PST
Hear, hear, George!
Comment by Eric Rice — May 27, 2005 @ 1:14 am PST
Dave Winer wrote in his comment in this thread: “My blog isn’t the biggest, but it works for me.”. Exactly! One thing that makes Adam Curry much better, less eviler, than Dave Winer is that www.curry.com has commenting feature and Dave Winer’s www.scripting.com has no commenting feature. Dave Winer: wake up and turn on comments! You don’t practice what you preach! In the end, thanks to having commenting switched-on on his blog, Adam Curry wins.
Comment by Mobile Phone Fan — May 27, 2005 @ 2:55 am PST
RSS w/ enclosures was a wonderful gift and I am thankful to both gentlemen for this. It is especially sad that this partnership could not materialize given the attractiveness of it’s opportunities. I suspect however that it was the vast opportunities that doomed this partnership from the beginning.
Comment by JezabelleChronicles — May 27, 2005 @ 3:32 am PST
Wait–let me get this straight–Dave Winer started promoting/creating a new technology, then someone else runs with it, and he feels ignored and abused and starts publicly trash talking ?
This seems to have happened with:
1. Outliners and apple
2. Blogging and blogger
3. RSS and Atom
4. Podcasting
Someone, please stop the cycle of abuse! I’m curious as to why this pattern keeps repeating itself, but I guess if it didn’t, it wouldn’t be a pattern.
Comment by Lester Argyle. — May 27, 2005 @ 10:31 am PST
Let’s look at this from a business perspective rather than an ideological one. In July 1999 Adam Curry resigned as Chief Technology Officer from one of his previous ventures (Think New Ideas) in July 1999 after it had agreed to be acquired by AnswerThink Consulting Group. By his own account he sold out his stake in Think New Ideas, making him a multiple millionaire in cash at the age of 35. Though he apparently lost some of it on helicopters, this money still seems to be paying for the ‘Curry Cottage’ and the private planes.
After resigning from Think, Adam Curry returned to the place where he grew up and started his DJ and VJ career – Amsterdam - in a blaze of glory. He convinced some of his former broadcasting colleagues and (some now apparently former) friends to give up their jobs and join his online broadband content venture named ‘Jamby’. This was probably supposed to have made them all rich, just like Adam Curry. Well, that didn’t happen.
Now comes the important bit. By his own account, Adam Curry invested a million dollars in developing the software for Jamby before it was shut down due to lack of any meaningful revenues. This seems to have taught him that developing software is time consuming and therefore expensive, especially if you are paying the software developers with your own cash. The equity markets had learned their expensive lesson by that time, so there was no dumb money sloshing around anymore to pick up the tab. The solution: jump on the open source band wagon and get the software for free! Dave Winer and others seem to have stepped up to the plate, and here we are.
In my view Adam Curry is a true innovator. His innovation has been to link the RSS functionality with the iPod brand. This is product innovation, not to be confused with technological innovation (that’s Dave Winer’s department). Just like Steve Jobs just linked laptop hard disks with white earbuds to create the iPod. However what does annoy me is - what seems to be typical with entrepreneurs from the 1990s dot com era - that the new Podshow venture seems to have to be accompanied with hyperbole and pumped up CVs.
Some of the myths that need correcting: contrary to what was being implied in the ‘Strategy Cast’:
(a) Think New Ideas never seems to have reported a full year of profitability. Granted, there were some profitable quarters, but in the final analysis the business does not seem to have generated any cash. All it had in my view were fast growing revenues and a ballooning share price;
(b) by the time the company agreed to be acquired by AnswerThink annual revenues for the year ended June 30th, 1999 amounted to approximately 50 million dollars, not exactly ‘approaching’ 100 million dollars as sometimes claimed.
(c) the company was acquired for approximately 157 million dollars in stock, based on the AnswerThink share price on the day the transaction closed (November 5th, 1999). The often mentioned 350 million dollar valuation is probably based on AnswerThink’s record high share price ($40.37) reached on January 26th, 2000. Using today’s arguably more realistic AnswerThink share price ($3.93, down over 90% from the top) the implied valuation of Think New Ideas would be just 33 million dollars.
Granted, it was a real business and the company is still around in one form or another, unlike a great many 1990s Internet start-ups. Adam Curry and his business partner were at exactly the right place at exactly the right time and were wise to cash in their chips.
Public shareholders were left holding the sack though, just like Dave Winer seems to be now. I agree with some of the other posts that the Daily Source Code gets less interesting the more it starts to resemble an IPO road show. Is this where the names iPo-dder and Pod-show derive from by any chance? If so, at least put the software developers on the friends-and-family list, Adam!
Then again, who are we to talk? Is any one of us paying anything to listen to Adam Curry’s - still commercial free and enjoyable - Daily Source Code?
Comment by Dutch Uncle — May 27, 2005 @ 4:45 pm PST
[…]
Matthew Gifford
Winer, Curry, and podcasting
There is a rather lengthy and very interesting post at Make You Go Hmm about the relationship between Dave Winer […]
Pingback by Matthew Gifford - Winer, Curry, and podcasting — May 27, 2005 @ 5:08 pm PST
The missing piece of information in the whole story is “What did Ron Bloom say to Adam after a few days of planning in South Beach?”
When did Adam and Ron decide to proceed without Dave and create BuKu Communications? I can imagine Ron Bloom just telling Adam that he wouldn’t go into business with Dave and giving Adam time to decide how to proceed. Adam and Ron probably won’t disclose their discussions but it’s clear to me that Dave’s ideas didn’t resonate with Ron’s and Ron could tell that Dave didn’t like his either.
I see Adam Curry as someone who really wants to have everyone like him and had to make the tough call on this one. Dave Winer hasn’t really decided if he wants to do the work of a start-up or just get paid for who he is. A start-up requires a ton of meetings and planning and selling… I see Adam Curry putting in the effort to make the business fly while doing his podcasts, creating the Sirius show and pitching Apple and any other company that might partner. At one time these guys had great respect for each other but
in business all friendships are tested… I think they broke off before there was a real need for lawyers. I wish them both well and hope the wounds heal. I’m going to keep listening to both of them and value their differences… they are great communicators and will act out the debate over podcasting values for years with their own contributions.
Comment by mcd — May 27, 2005 @ 8:38 pm PST
Its amazing how many people feel its necessary to flame Dave here without considering the facts behind the story. Read http://www.thetwowayweb.com/payloadsforrss and see that Dave does credit Curry quite explicitly, saying …Adam persuaded Dave to change his point of view….. And Radio Userland has had the ability to pod-catch since it came out and definitely is the first ipodder or podcatcher or whatever you want to call it, and way back then.
Ironically its curry who had gone away from the original vision of multimedia downloads when bandwidth is not being used to satellite radio and the now so often repeated centralized directory of podcasts. The infrastructure was here in 2001, the music clients werent. Its back to late 90’s zero innovation vc driven drivel again.
Somebody will figure out the correct way to meld audio video and text into an appropriate client structure and come up with a distribution mechanism which leverages and robustifies the distributed RSS delivery neworks we have, and they will be the ones to make money of it. And someone else will probably build a media empire on this democratization of content. But its someone who will come from left field, and who hasnt drunk the curren t batch of koolaid being passed around. Andd it may even be Google or Microsoft or Apple, but unlikely the centralized directory me-too’s.
Comment by Rahul Dave — May 28, 2005 @ 5:11 am PST
Apologies for double-posting there, safari not giving good feedback on the submit button being clicked
Comment by Rahul Dave — May 28, 2005 @ 5:13 am PST
The first comment made is moderated, Rahul, so we could remove the duplicate post. I’ve used Safari to post before and not had a problem, but I haven’t rechecked since we added the spellchecker, so I’ll revisit that, thank you for the feedback.
Thank you to all others who have left feedback. Some great points have been made here.
Comment by TDavid — May 28, 2005 @ 7:17 am PST
Ongoing rant
Tdavid wrote an excellent piece on the rant between Adam and Dave. The comments are exceptional.
Read them, I’m sure there is more to come.
…
Trackback by Public Secrets — May 28, 2005 @ 2:58 pm PST
Good article - this is pretty much as I remember it (no need to go and listen to old podcasts - if I could) - then I was a paid-up DSC listener then who read scripting.com but didn’t listen to MCN, I was wary of Dave and could see he does have issues around attribution with RSS and I read about weblogs.com too. But the Adam - Senseo thing started to rankle, it was a deep queer pitch to all the other stuff, until he posted the Amazon link and I realised he’s just proving market share to advertisers…after that it was a slippery slope.
But the odd thing is this figure of 50,000 subscribers to DSC which never seemed to waver from November - when I stopped listening back in April… - Curry was claiming that back in late 2004 and was doing so this year - with all the press and BBC and US/UK TV coverage I could believe it *now*, but in those early days? Deeply suspicious…especially with one with such PR and marketing drive and need to prove the show - he wouldn’t be the first start-up to enlarge take-up figures to attract initial interest would he?
I don’t know if he did, but I never saw any provable figures, it was all from the horses mouth. And everyone believed him…
Nowadays I read both blogs, don’t listen to Adam and might start listening to Dave - because although yes this personality war and Podshow is taking it’s toll (how many podcasts do you know that have now either stopped, faded out or are now getting sporadic? THIS is the side-effect of Podshow, this feud abour money vs art - people are jacking it in because they are made to feel like what they are doing is worthless because others are making better money/bigger audiences or ending up on the TV…it’s a really bad side-effect, and not one I’ve seen with say, blogs before now?)
I think Dave is more on the money and if I wanted to listen to people setting up start-ups I’d go down to the local TEC; and the planes, trains and automobiles just put me off.
But really it’s true, the big guns are now here and it’s too late for both of them…it’s left to podcatchers to decide whether they want produced shows with advertising that are basically rips off a radio stream; or audio-blogs or shows made by non-professional but genuine people.
The listeners will now decide as the corporates come on stream in the next few weeks.
Sad really; if the first wave of podcasting hadn’t rushed so quickly into the flames maybe it’s infancy would have provided some resistance to all these childhood, corporatehood diseases…ie. built a grassroots revolution rather than selling out as ironically Dave and Adam have put it ‘to the man’.
Comment by tim @ Radio Clash — May 29, 2005 @ 11:26 pm PST
Adam as a shareholder of JAMBY in 2000:
“I think some excellent work was done on RSS by both Userland and Netscape and hope that someone will pick up where they left off in their content syndication effort, since this is the key to successful growth of personalized content consumption.”
“I’m no programmer, but I know enough about XML to have a feeling that this language is probably the right way to go for creating Formats. I have followed Dave Winer’s development of Userland for several years now, and really got excited by his latest offering Radio Userland, which enables creation, publishing and aggregating of playlists through his outlining software and XML.”
http://adamcurry.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$161
later in 2001:
“From my broadcast experience I have learned that although people will say they want choices they can make themselves, they usually really appreciate when someone does the work for them. That’s what I call ‘formatting’. Setting up a playlist of elements for 1 or any number of people to enjoy, passively or actively.
Go Ahead, try to ‘format’ today’s music. Do it…on demand…you’ll first need to come up with 12 mp3 titles for each hour. Just writing down the names becomes a burden. So we need better tools to help us format our lives, perhaps with a few pre-configured formats ready for you to try and we need to get the content you want onto your ‘Always On’ connection so you needn’t rely on routing and bandwidth for an enjoyable experience.”
http://tmp.manilasites.com/stories/storyReader$9
Comment by Frank Magoo — May 30, 2005 @ 2:58 am PST
Great article by TDavid. Like many of the other folks who have posted here, I stumbled across podcasting in September of last year. It happened while experimenting with radiouserland for the first time and checking out some of the feeds included in their aggregator.
It’s an interesting story, and really not so boring. It’s just real life. Seems to me that Winer is a serial inventor of software solutions (his outliner for the mac is still one of my favorites) and Curry is a great example of a radio guy with a technical bent who envisions products that utilize technical innovations like those of Winer. I worked for a couple of guys like this back in the ’90s and their partnership broke apart with a lot more acrimony than this one. The insertion of a third party into the mix seems to be the catalyst for breakups of all sorts (whether business or marriage), and the Winer/Curry situation seems to be no exception.
Winer deserves credit for the technical implementation and Curry deserves credit for the product innovation. In many ways, this reminds me of the relationship between Jobs and Woz, although the acrimony of the podcast story is much higher than the Apple story. Looking at the history, it’s not surprising that the story is playing out in much the same way, with the “product guy” gaining more media fame than the “technical guy” in the long run. Woz doesn’t seem to mind a whole lot, though.
I won’t pretend to be one who can judge either Curry or Winer - I still enjoy Adam’s DSC and - from time to time - Dave’s MCN. I lean more toward Adam’s point of view, probably because I am a radio guy with a technical bent.
However, the real heroes of podcasting are folks like Doug Kaye of IT Conversations, Leo LaPorte of TWIT and - one of my personal favorites - Brian Ibbett of Coverville. These folks and many, many others are working hard to produce and distribute truly entertaining and/or useful podcasts that I love to listen to. That’s where the future of podcasting is.
Comment by mediadude — May 30, 2005 @ 1:46 pm PST
I don’t think that Curry is in for the fame. Maybe for the money…(nothing wrong with that) But not for fame. He did a few podcasts in Dutch with his wife. In those very open conversations they talked about the bad side of being well known. The couple moved to the UK to escape all of that. With his track record he can have a well paid job in television. He is not in to that at all anymore. I think he is in love with radio… (broadcasting, podcasting, whatever…)
Comment by Dennis — May 30, 2005 @ 2:40 pm PST
THE WORD OF THE DAY IS…
spelunking - spe ‘ lunk ‘ ing n.
Trackback by podbat blog — May 30, 2005 @ 8:18 pm PST
[…] 6%] Average words per post: 227 Max words for a single post: 2,706 on 2005-05-19 10:24:06 (Podcasting Star Wars: Winer vs. Curry) After reviewing the actual stats, now I have to retract my com […]
Pingback by Make You Go Hmm: » [site news] Average post length numbers — June 22, 2005 @ 10:52 am PST
[…] follows and documents the history of new trends like podcasting […]
Pingback by Make You Go Hmm: » 100 reasons MakeYouGoHmm should make CNET’s Blog 100 — October 7, 2005 @ 7:30 am PST
Your pithy background and the responding comments are priceless for a former WSJ & NBC reporter, now speake & newbie blogger who needed this background to make sense of what has unfolded re podcasting .. I think there are HUGE markets for podcasts done in partnership with associations - and that formats, tone and style can richly vary. I’d welcome the opportunity to help that partnering happen as I speak at coferences perahsp 4 - 6 times a month and have ideas abut which staffer and board members might be most interested i providing this every benefit & fully using it a two-way tool where associations can more closely align their spending to their members’ interests.. monetizing can involve new business models too. Your insights could help make that happen
Comment by kare anderson — October 17, 2005 @ 12:20 pm PST
[…] BTW, one of the most read and commented threads at this blog to date — Winer linked to it multiple times, in fact — was my own historical take on podcasting: Podcasting Star Wars: Winer vs. Curry. Bummer, that this sizzling drama didn’t make the Wiki cut, but if fellow Star Wars geeks might get aroused. […]
Pingback by Make You Go Hmm: » Curry busted, admits to Wiki podcast history editing — December 2, 2005 @ 2:01 pm PST
This is a great piece - very educational and enjoyable.
Add the update: June 2005: PodTech.net InfoTalk is born.
Comment by John Furrier — December 2, 2005 @ 7:43 pm PST
[…] In the past, I read some blather about the war between Dave Winer and Adam Curry. I didn’t think much of it. People are people. They fight. I figured that these guys just couldn’t come to closure on the issues. Shortly thereafter it dropped off my radar. […]
Pingback by WebWord » Blog Archive » Interesting Battle: Dave Winer vs. Rogers Cadenhead — March 16, 2006 @ 9:53 am PST
[…] While away on vacation, a couple Dave Winer dramas flared up which I told myself: I’d pass on blogging (been there, done that), but in the wee hours this morning Scott Karp reeled me into a more interesting angle (bastid!) to Dave’s supposed blog retirement plans: is it the blog or the blogger that keeps readers enthralled and subscribed? […]
Pingback by Make You Go Hmm: » Is it the blog or the blogger that holds subscribers? — March 19, 2006 @ 7:50 am PST